Okay, I know that I opened up a can of worms last time, but I want to clarify an assumption that I made which was wrong. I do believe that one can be homosexual and not sin. I wrongly assumed that someone who is homosexual is practicing the "life-style." Which to me, means engaging in sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage and specific sex acts that are clearly labeled as sin in the Bible (I quoted the verse before). So what I want to clarify is that I do not believe that homosexuality in itself is a sin, rather it is the behavior that may follow, just the same as a heterosexual person. Remember, I am open to other opinions and mine are not set in stone when I am given more information, if I research further or think/pray about it.

However, again I want to emphasize that my first call is to love people and accept them. That will always be my first focus...I hope.

Thing is CC, not everyone believes in Christianity or the Bible or sinning and so may not be affected by the type of prejudice you speak of or the dilemma you face. I appreciate though that you are struggling with the desire to love and accept all when the reality is that this type of full love is darn hard especially when your faith may teach you otherwise.

I don't have any prejudice against gays regardless of their lifestyle as I was not raised to believe some people are 'out of the loop' while others are on a fast ticket to paradise.

It is a strange thing that religion preaches on one hand not to judge and yet there are none more judgemental than religious folk.

*ducks for cover*

Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT atheist as I do believe in God, just one God for all and that IS all, gays included and I am not affiliated to any fan clubs and so am not bound by any contradictory or ambiguous set of rules.

I believe that God loves Gays just as much as anyone else and why not? He made them afterall. Who are we to say God got it wrong?

If it a lifestyle one objects to then let us be sure of our reason for objecting.

Do the private actions of these individuals affect us, society or our children negatively?

If the answer is no, then we must simply mind out own business.

Oh, you need the background. This is a thread followed from last month's Post about homosexuality...it became rather lengthy, but excellent. You might want to look at the post called Go! Get Smited on August 20th in the Inspiration section, http://gosmelltheflowers.com/archives/3745.

I shared my own opinion and I do not, at least I hope it does not come across that way, try to push my beliefs on others. I simply share my own with an open mind to hear others who do so respectfully and without attcking. This was written to clarify some of the things that I wrote. To get the context of where I am coming from please read the previous post as there is way too much for me to repeat here. There were more than 60 comments.

Ah cool, I shall do that :) thanks

Sharing opinions is good, it's normal,it's healthy and we like it!

Not taking sides here, but it seems to me that the bible specifically focuses on the act of sodomy as being sinful. I don't believe I remember it saying anywhere that being gay was a problem.

I think it's interesting that so many people associate sodomy as homosexuality and vice versa. While it is a part of homosexuality, it's certainly not the end all be all of one's gender choice.

I really am just trying to work this out in my head too and clarify my beliefs. And, as always, am very open to all points of view, as long as it is in a sharing of information/experience form and not trying to convince me one way or the other. This is a continuation of a post called Go! Get Smited on August 20th in the Inspiration section.

I do not believe that the Bible says that homosexuality or attraction to the same sex is a sin/problem. Other Christians, will disagree. However, it does specifically address sodomy and fornication/adultry (sex outside of marriage). So, if one is homosexual and does not participate in these experiences, then is it okay? This is the issue that I am wrestling with. I know, some Christians who are homosexual (shh...the evangelical church pretends like it doesn't exist in their churches, so they vehemently attack homosexuals. That is my belief) and practice celibacy, so does that make it right in God's eyes?

I think to find your answer to that question you might want to look at some of the earliest known samples of biblical writings. Personally, I feel like the bible has been written and rewritten so many times it's very difficult to see which parts the original writer, or God, really intended for people to follow.

Even large segments of the bible and other religious scriptures have been removed by the Papal church over questions of it's legitimacy over the thousands of years the Catholic church has existed.

This sodomy is sin thing really makes me wonder. Since it's not in the ten commandments, nor is it specifically described as one of the so called 'seven deadly sins'. Really, I think one of the only references to it being looked down on by God is the destruction of the cities, Sodom and Gomorrah and that's Old Testament stuff.

Given that there are priests having sex with choir boys I don't think you should wrestle too much this problem as the Priests clearly aren't.

Though I realise this is facetious the point I am trying to make is that, there is a great deal of evil in this world and it goes on within religion and outside of it. Choir boys aside, the bottom line is, if it's not hurting anyone, why are you concerned what others do?

Gay men/women will not be barred from heaven if there is one based on this alleged 'sin' when they may otherwise have led a more generous, kind life than those that decline.

If it isn't hurting anyone, why am I concerned. There are two points here.

1) For myself as a Christian I want to clarify my values, principles and beliefs. I am also asked because I am a Christian and I am not solid enough in my convictions or even know where they are? I have a sense where they are headed though. Don't you think about your values even when it doesn't affect you? However, this one does.

2) For as it not hurting anyone, every person especially if they are Christian or some other religion has a deep pain in trying to resolve their conflict between being a Christian and being gay. The pain runs extremely deep and leads some to suicide. I generally, it hurts families and friends and other relationships by saying that you are gay...not all the time, but most people who are gay have this experience.

How do you prove to me that men and women who are homosexual will not be barred from heaven if you have not investigated this yourself? From a Christian/Biblical stance sin is sin and the consequence is the same separation from God, so it doesn't matter if you are a "good person." I am not saying that I believe homosexuality to be a sin, either. I am still wrestling with my beliefs and want to hear other opinions with facts to back them up because I know there are arguements for both sides. I'm hoping to hear something that I haven't thought about yet or did not know.

Hi funkygirl, thanks for joining in on the discussion. I value your input, but didn't see your reply until after I replied to creativeblogger. Yes, there are all sorts of reference books that I would like to get, but they are so expensive. Greek and Hebrew would be great to know...never ever want to take a class, not at this point in my life. I like to use about five different translations when I investigate things. I know the translations are a difficult thing. I am a non-denominational protestant Christian is how I identify myself. In the new testament sodomy is mentioned, but so is effeminate which I just discovered...now, I really want to look deeper because I think that that has been misunderstood. I don't know how I would resolve effeminate being considered sinful? My first reaction is that it can not be true.

A friend of mine recommended a book by Dr. Jack Rogers about Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality. Rogers is a high up there in the rankings of the Presbyterian (not sure) church and believed that homosexuality was a sin and did not want to research this to determine the churches stance on the issue, but did and was surprised by his findings. I just ordered it yesterday. But, you give good advise and raise good questions and points. Thank you.

Hi CC, thanks for clarifying, it seems to me none of these problems would exist if your religion did not exist as they all stem from that.

This is one reason I am so glad not to have a religion.

I don't believe in heaven so no worries there about how my beliefs will affect entry.
I don't believe the Bible is the word of God and I don't believe that a man called Jesus was the son of God

You ask me what proof is there if you are homosexual you can get into heaven, what proof do you have that anything you believe in regards to your religion is real? There is not a single shred of evidence to prove Jesus was the son of God, to prove the Bible is the word of God and so on and so forth.

The vast majority of the world that are not Christian have their own unique take on things.

What we believe in the absence of proof is a matter for us as individuals.

You can choose where you stand on this issue yourself and how closely you want to adhere to the principles of your religion.

If everyone chose to follow religion blindly without question as some are taught to do then no one would ever evolve. We'd still be sacrificing lambs and in some cases children!

You are questioning and that is a good thing. Don't beat yourself up about it.

Take Care

Creativeblogger,

I appreciate you participating in the discussion; however, I do not think that it is way off topic now. However, I do have an answer for everyone of your questions, but that is not the topic. And, I don't feel like you really understand the intent or my question or where I am coming from. The point is that I am a Christian trying to delve into a subject that few really do with an open mind. I am not beating myself up and I will continue to pursue this until I have come to conclusions that satisfy myself and are congruent with my being a Christian.

Clueless

It would seem that Creativeblogger is a bit off topic but was only trying to reassure you in the end CC. Try not to take offense as it seems misunderstandings between people of different beliefs is one of the most common problems we deal with on earth.

I'm glad you like to use several different resources in your explorations. It definitely goes a long way in confirming or 'debunking' some passages and even just words used in the bible. Keep in mind that different words and phrases used during the original printing of your current book probably meant something different. Like 'Gay' didn't always mean 'homosexual' just 'happy and carefree' .

This can cause a problem with translation not only between languages, but time periods. So the more versions of a book you have and the older it's 1st original, original copy the more likely you are to find large differences in meaning and intent.

Things have also been rewritten or 'left out' by different religious groups to suit their spiritual and political needs. So you may want to look at the writings of the older religions like Catholiscm, Judaism and even some Islamic writings. These three western religions and the groups that diverged from them can call be traced back to one almost unified religious belief system if you go back far enough.

The parts we're talking about from Genesis are in the Old Testament, so you may want to look for books with compilations of the Dead Sea Scrolls or what they've been able to recover so far.

Thank you and I know what you mean and the nuances of your reply. I know, I have to go further back, but the author who wrote the book I referred to is supposed to be some type of well-respected Biblical historian. I will see. I hurt my head when I delve into stuff like this! OUCH. But, I want my convictions to be solid and this doesn't feel solid enough to me...why can't I just take it and the church at their word...life would be simplier, but then it would be my faith. Thank you for the support. I very much appreciated it.

I understand what you mean about your head hurting. I myself, try to avoid math and philosophy unless absolutely necessary, lest i sprain my brain.

LOL!! Yes, I have the book now but have only read the introductory parts, but it isn't a long book. However, I'm also doing some research to write a post on Dissociative Disorders. Now, I think I sprained my brain...and this is what I like to do in my spare time...need a life!!! LOL!!! I avoid math and science, but not philosophy (only to a point though). It doesn't take to long for the discussion to go zooming way over my head!!

I just have to throw my hat in the ring here ... sorry...
but I just sit here and read the thread and not....
CC ..... here is something for you to ponder....
Nowhere in the bible does it mention homosexuals as being sinful, yes there is mention of the other parts to it, however it does also say to love your neighbour, love the sinner, show compassion, be merciful etc etc..
In my opinion and it is only my opinion..
You have a duty to love everyone regardless of their orientation, and regardless if they are commiting a sin in the eyes of God.... because you nor church can pass Judgement on anyperson regardless of their life style choices the only person who can is God....
And the truth be known you would be commiting a sin by not accepting them...
YOu dont have to condone their lifestyle, you dont have to agree with it, and you certainly dont have to a party to it... but as a good christian you should accept and love them as people and not judge them thats Gods Job....
Hope this helps.....

AC ~

At first I read this and thought, what the ... you know me better than that. Ah, but then I realized that you were not here when I was fed to the lions for the post Go! Get Smited on homosexuality that had 67 comments. I was trying to clarify or correct a statement I had made in it. I can't believe that you missed the whole thing. But, this post did not go as intended as you maybe able to tell; however, funkygirl, was really helpful and encouraging. If I were to do a post summarizing what I've been writing this is it just so we are clear:

I just really want to start an active discussion to hear different view points because I want to reconcile my faith as a Christian with what I know and see regarding homosexuality and establish some convictions.

I've been an active Christian for 28 years and have never been one to just take theology blindly. I have always had to search and research for myself. One area that seem to be pressing now is the Bible, Christianity and Homosexuality. I do have a concern that what I see and hear from the gay community is that they are not welcome in the church and are actively attacked. For me, that is not a Christian what Jesus taught at all. I know that Jesus's main commandment was for us to love God and each other which is what I try to practice in my life to be loving and accepting even if I have a different value or opinion than the other person. Bottom line is that all have sinned and do sin which should not keep us away from the church, but it is exactly where we need to be.

I try to base my foundations on the new testament while being aware of the old testament. I find that if I have to state my case for something that it being the Law and Jesus's being the sacrifice for such things that I have a stronger case if I find Jesus's words or verses in the new testament. For me, the Bible does not specifically state that homosexuality is a sin. And, from what I've researched so far is that sodomy, adultery and fornication are specified. Which since people who are homosexual are not allowed to marry, any of these sexual acts would be sinful just as with a heterosexual person.

To me, the "church" generally has an inability to look at abortion, adultry, divorce, homosexuality and mental illness, as real issues that Christians face. Some bitterly attack these issues and cause people not to talk about it in church because they do not want to accept reality that it exists in the church. Now, this is my opinion. What is called from us, is acceptance of the person, get to know the person, no judgement because we have all sinned and not all of these issues are sins of the person and spiritual warfare has a part, but not all. I think the above is why people with these sins are attacked far more vehemently than even murderers. Christians go to prisons and accept them and evangelize. Why not for other sins?

I know what the evangelical side believes. However, scientific evidence is so far inconclusive to me. So far, I think that for some people that it comes from some type of trauma creating sexual brokenness that can happen in infancy and for others I think that they are born with attraction toward the same sex. I know people who have totally turned their life around, had healing and identify themselves as heterosexual with a family and the kids and everything. Also, I know other very devout Christians who identify themselves as being gay. One such person recommended a book to me by Dr. Jack Rogers entitled, "Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church." He was on a committee (I think Presbyterian) and they were developing doctrine for the church and against his will he was assigned this area. He had always believed that homosexuality was a sin. In doing his research with this value set in mind, he came up with a very different conclusion. I have ordered the book.

I believe that I need to look at what the context of certain verses uses are and what the original Greek and Hebrew says. I like to use about five different translations with study guides and commentary when I investigate things. I know the translations are a difficult thing. In I Cor 6:9, sodomy is mentioned, but so is "effeminate" which I just discovered. Now, I really want to look deeper because I think that that has been misunderstood. I don't know how I would resolve "effeminate" being considered sinful? My first reaction is that it can not be true.

I am not confused, nor do I feel badly about my current beliefs. However, I am questioning and am open to all points of view to determine my own convictions. Much of my impetus for this stirring now is that with the same-sex marriage , having several friends who are gay (I always have and they know my point of view, but so do my heterosexual friends who live together), four friends "coming out" in the past two years, having a family member who is gay and really wanting to know all sides of the arguments. I know the evangelical side, but I want to hear others.

I am not looking for someone to answer my questions as much as I want to hear different view points and healthy discussion where no one is trying to convice someone to think the same way. Just a discussion where anyone can openly state their opinion. But, my bottom line is to that we are called to love (accept, treat others with respect, and dignity, etc...) and not judge for I certainly would not want someone judging my life (I can do that better than anyone else, thank you). But, seriously the church is is absolutely terrible with how they treat and talk about homosexuality and abortion. People who are homosexual and who have had abortions sit in the pew/chairs right next to you in church, in their own silent pain and shame. I just really want to open up a good dialogue.

AC- I hope that was clearer to you...you really missed a lot in that post and my opinions are changing and are not settled yet. I do not feel like I have enough information. I can tell you what the church says, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I agree. For the most part, I am appaled at the response. I hope this makes sense and you did not think that I was that close minded or judgemental. Yes, I come from a Christian point of view, but I am open-minded and like hearing other points of view for it makes me constantly reevaluate my convictions and make them stronger.

GDay CC
Closed minded and judgemental are terms I would NOT use to discribe you at all... my friend in fact quite the opposite....
I totally understand understand your thoughts and possible confusion on this matter.. Hey even the churches cant agree.. so its a pretty tricky one...
You are right I did miss the post.. hmm its not like me.. perhaps it was when I was away.. camping.. no computer...
The problem is each side has valid reasoning of a sort.... and I do have strong thoughts on the various aspects of each..
One thing you should know is I too have openly gay friends and did for a time live with some of them...it was great until they started to die from HIV and suicide (HIV positive didnt want to wait)
I can understand the churches stance on the issue of sexuality even if I dont agree with it, it seems to go against everything they stand for in so far as marriage and family etc.. so this to me is more of face saving exercise for the church. If they condoned it, it would open up a hornets nest of implications....
As far as the bible stands I truly dont think there is a clear cut answer. So many new versions and so many interpretations it can be hard to keep up. The fact that you are choosing to research so thoroughly is a credit to you and Keep diging the answers are out there..
One suggestion for you I can make... Go around to old book stores and try and find an old bible, King James version... it is the one the others seem to taken from... and an old english words and phrase book... this will help with alot of the meanings.. many words these days do have opposite meanings to the original.
IF your going through the Greek and Hebrew Bibles as well, then you find many many miss translations in your current bible... there are many.... and one thing to remember when the Bible was written the laws were very different to what you might expect they were like and even as they have been interpreted as.... this can possible shake you a little....
There is a few very good books on history of the bible itself and one imparticular which I cant for the life of me remember but if I do I will send you the info...
As far as my opinions on the topic on hand well... it is pretty much along these lines..
What 2 consenting adults do in behind closed doors is their business.... so long as they are consenting it is what it is... if it is a sin then it is theirs, not saying I turn a blind eye to it, but it is not my call... On the subject of Gay marriage well heres a bombshell I dont agree with it...
Marriage is a church based christian based institution and if the church does not accept the lifestyle practise then it can not be expected to respect the union... and I am old fashioned a marriage in the biblical sense is between a man and a women... that being said I have no problem with Union or Joining ceremonies or the recognition of same sex couples as a couple with all the same rights etc as none gay couples.. I really cant see them as any different than anyone else especially in regards to law ....
I hope that helps..

Thanks AC,

I sure do wish that you were around during the post. I had no allies. However, I earned their respect and it was a discussion not a debate. I think that it was good and look what it got me into.

Your points are well put. I have five interpretations of the Bible including King James and commentaries. I also believe that what two people two consenting people do is private and their business. It is not mine to judge, but to continue to accept and love them. But, for my own Christian convictions, I want to be clear. Your very on marriage took me by surprise.

Thanks for your enlightening input.

I am a bit old fashioned on some areas...
my family was very christian and i was raised that way in many areas.. depending on whose home I was at on Sunday.. hehehehehe..
during my younger years I did do a study of sorts into various religions trying reconcille the differnet things I was told... so I can understand the search you on partly, mine was into totally different faiths not the depth and differing doctines of christianity or the bible as such although it was in there but only briefly... it was many years ago and I most of it is tucked away in archives of my brain..
why did I take you by surprise on the marriage issue??? just curious

The marriage issue surprised me because it was so Biblical based by your explanation and I've never heard you talk about religion. I grew up in a fairly non-religious home, but I've always had a sense of God. When I was 14 my mother suddenly decided that she wanted me to go to church, but she wasn't going. She even bribed me with a new wardrobe including accessories. But, that didn't even work (wow, turn down going on a shopping spree!!). In hindsight, I think she wanted me out of the house because that was the only morning she and my step-father had alone together...I could always hear them.

Anyway, when I was 15 almost, my friends invited me to church and I became a Christian soon after. However, I at 15 I was asking lots of questions like, "How do you know the Bible is real?"; "How do you know Jesus was God?," "How do you know He resurrected?" I found my list recently and it has about 15 or so very deep questions. I continued to attend church, but started to research and I'm still a Christian now. I still have that questioning and thinking deeper mind. What the Bible says, who I know God to be and what I see and experience needs to match; otherwise, I need to search. I'm okay with "I don't know, yet," and "not being comfortable with my conclusions in terms of can't it be different that isn't the conclusion I wanted?"

In searching different faiths, I did that in college. I took a couple of religious studies courses and almost minored in it. I make my brain hurt all the time...ouch!!! Thanks for sharing. This is a really nice place to have a more in depth conversation. I was having a bit of difficulty earlier in this question as you probably read a bit. It is refreshing to e-talk with you!!!

I am enjoying our convos here as well...
I dont often lend myself to talk online at any depth ...
just to clarify my views on marriage...
I do take a rather biblical stand on it, but it because marriage is a biblical concept, unions and joining ceremonies and alike are a more pagan concept
Personally I dont subscribe to the concept of marriage through the church, having been there and done that. I believe in God but not in the church, am not a christian in the sense that most people see it, however I hold many morals, ethics and principles very close to my heart and these are by what I live by...
I would see myself as a hypocrite if I was engage in a Christian or church based idyology such as marriage when I either do not accept it doctrine, but by the same token would not accept the same if it was accepting of me or my lifestyle choices....
This is more a matter of stubborn principles on my part than anything else.. However I do believe in a God and have read the bible on many occasions, and see it as morals and ethics to live by.
Hope this helps

Yes, that clarifies things a lot. I like getting to know you more indepth. You also reminded me that marriage is a Biblical concept.

Is the bible available in pink?
Not a problem with gayboys per say but why do some of them have to overpronounce 's' and generally behave so feminine?
Thats what I really don't like, mincers, its just wrong. Surely they can be gay and not have to mince around so much, its just creepy.

What are "mincers" is that like "flaming?"

Funny you should ask about pink. My husband has a Precious Moments bible in pastels. Everyone thinks it is mine, but there is no way that it would ever be mine.

Gareth, you are kidding right?
Creepy?
Are you 4?

Regarding Leviticus...and Chapter 18; verse 22..."Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Is eating a rare or medium-rare steak also abomination as in Leviticus Chapter 17; verse 10..."...whatsoever man...that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood..."? Is it also abomination to wear cotton-polyester clothing as in Leviticus Chapter 19; verse 19..."...neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee."?

Jimbo~

Thank you for jumping in. I agree with you which is why I don't like to use the Old Testament for main points because it is about the Law which was made dead through Jesus Christ. Some still stands, but I like to go by the New Testament especially Jesus's own words which is not literal at times.

Right now, I am trying to find a direct verse that says that marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman. I can't find one...everything is inferred which, to me, does not exclude other unions. Also, the verses that are often used against homosexuality, if taken into context, had no boundaries and was not monogamous.

I'm still sorting out.

Thanks,
CC