Last weekend saw me visit the Hong Kong 7′s 3 day Rugby tournament for my stag night. It was an excellent event with many nationalities from 5 continents all getting together for a great sporting carnival – men, women and kids of all ages. Lots of drink, banter and sportsmanship, hosted by an excellent team from Hong Kong and the IRB. Everyone’s natural reaction was friendship, fun and banter with whoever they met. Needless to say lots of drink was consumed and you were never far away from one of the fantastically helpful beer selling girls should you need to replenish.
So how come football fans can’t get their heads around being in a crowd, enjoying a drink, friendly rivalry and some good natured ribbing without feeling the need to batter 9 barrels of crap out of each other?
(P.S. Not 100% sure my Chinese translation is correct)
BLIMEY you’re back GIC…
Welcome back and glad you snook under the radar – assuming you are still in China.
((People – Gareth in China – flowers founder and general bright cookie couldn’t access GO! Smell the flowers in China in the last 2 weeks – possibly due to posts on Tibet and the Olympics
))
GIC – Congratulations – did it all get a bit messy?
Well it got a bit drunken, not sure about messy. Many highlights, a few being; availability of a decent fry up with black pudding in the morning and then having a beer with the Kenyan team on the final night. They played really well and were a sound bunch of lads.
Regarding the China thing, I heard they’d freed up BBC news site over the weekend after years of blocking so I tried this afternoon and got on OK, fingers crossed.
To be honest its all a bit distasteful, not the Chinese site blocking – I accepted things might be different when I moved to China, but the way everyone keeps throwing in the Olympics without taking any time to understand the wider situation of China. Its development, its history, its culture, its mindset and how Rome wasn’t built in a day. Even Flowers has a vote on it without any discussion. How many have ever discussed China with a Chinese person? Really looked at what is desirable versus what is practical and feasible? What can be achieved today versus what can be achieved in a longer time span?
Throughout I got foreign news and Chinese news, the local people’s opinions and the midpoint of it all. The Western view will always side with the Dalai Lama without question but little thought is given to the overall situation. Its always black and white in the media, nobody looks into anything with any depth and certainly there are massive blinkers worn whenever China is in the news.
Either way I can access again after a few weeks absence so, mei wen ti, zou ba.
GarethinChina’s last blog post..BLOG idol – The Winners Show!
Hey! Look who’s back! Gareth and his pedantic speeches!!!!
Welcome back Confucius! Missed ya at Flowers.
About the rugby/ football thing, er.. I think.. er…well… ohhh never mind that! Bridget is just happy to see you here!
Hope all went according to plan in HK.
Welcome back Gareth and thanks for yuor heart felt plea for others to try and understand more about the Chinese position from their viewpoint.
I for one am really interested in hearing the “other side” of the story about China.
As you said, what is desirable versus what is practical and feasible? What can be achieved today versus what can be achieved in a longer time span?
And like you say, in my simplistic western way, I will always side with the Dalai Lama without question and without giving little thought to the overall situation.
Last Friday I was in the High Street in St Johns Wood and was asked by a journalist from The Independent on Sunday about whether Britain should boycott the Beijing Olympics over the Tibet situation. I was then featured last sunday in the paper along with my mugshot. I did answer parrot fashion that yes, we should boycott the Olympics.
Gareth – maybe here at Flowers is an opportunity for you to present a more rounded viewpoint. You can help me and other remove our own masive blinkers worn everytime China is in the news.
Over to you buddy…
arvind’s last blog post..7 Tips to Stop Losing an Hour of your time EVERY Day
Aaargh! Aaargh! Makes Bridget look plain stooopid not commenting on football this clever Arvind he does with what his clever comments on China he makes he does! Aaargh! Aaargh!
Bridget wears no massive blinkers w.r.t China
Since the 70′s China has been progressively modernising and developing. Through the 80′s and 90′s more and more cities opened up (many areas of China were completely closed to foreigners). Rights and freedoms today are almost light years away from what they used to be.
Is China completely there? Do I think the people have the freedoms they should have? The answer to both is no.
However try and think back to how the Chinese got where they did. In recent times Britain, Germany, Portugal and of course Japan all took advantage of them to varying degrees, the Japanese being the worst and most brutal offenders, commiting attrocoties even the Germans didn’t consider. Due to many reasons, not least the invasions and brutalisation of its people, the Chinese are very suspicious of foreigners and are a very inward looking race – lets face it they even built the worlds biggest wall to keep invaders out. Yet China has not gone to war or been aggressive to others, they aren’t expansionists.
Now ask yourself a few questions.
What have sanctions achieved in Korea, Sudan, Somalia, Burma, Zimbabwe – nothing except worsening the lives of the common people.
When the Russians boycotted the US Olymipics what was the result? Nothing.
When the US boycotted the Moscow games what changed? Nothing.
So boycotting the Chinese games, what will be the result? You strengthen the resolve of many officials to distrust foreigners. You shatter the dreams of over 1 billion people. You reduce the chances of changing the perception of foreign countries and people. You reduce the chance of exchanging ideas and dreams with the common people.
Who are you punishing? Yourselves and the average Chinese person, certainly not the politicians.
If a complete stranger tells you that if you walk across a certain road you’ll have an accident, yet directly afterwards your best friend tells you that is rubbish and it’s fine, who do you believe?
For China many changes have happened, many still need to happen but sabre rattling, threatening and commanding are all ways to guarentee this won’t happen. If you want to be listened to then you need to be trusted and on the inside. Many Western businessmen fail here as they try to ‘close the deal’ quickly using pressure, incentives ,threats, whatever. These guys like to spend time mulling it over. You plant the seed, walk away and then harvest much later, it really works.
Then look back at yourselves. What have we done to Turkey all these years about Cyprus – nothing
What support do ETA have? None. What support (apart from some misguided US people) did the IRA get? None. Where is the consistency? Maori rights, Native American rights, Aboriginal rights? We didn’t mind stamping on them did we?
The miners strike of the 80′s saw mass state sponsored brutalisation of the common British man. You have plenty of freedoms that are being taken away through the anti terror laws. Violent crime in the West is at epidemic proportions caompared to China. So are we so sure we are right and they are wrong? Only if you can not view it from a different perspective and through a sense of empathy. There are rights and wrongs everywhere but you need to think hard about how to change them, not just shouting ‘Free Tibet’ at the end of a concert like a very stupid, insignificant Western performer did recently.
The violence in Tibet was directed mainly against ordinary people not the state. I don’t call 10 Tibetans beating up a Han Chinese guy with sticks then burning his shop protesting. The Dalai Lama only came out in condemnation when it was beneficial for him to do so and when the pictures coming out showed the brutalisation of Han Chinese and not the state.
A lot of progress has been made since Tiananmen Square, Rome wasn’t built in a day – maybe a better course of action would be engagement, encouragement and working WITH them.
Its not like everyone is walking around in shackles and blindfolds and only get to watch propoganda shows at night, which is what major parts of the Western news would have you believe.
Diplomacy and engagement is infinitely better than threats – how many of you are thanking the Chinese for bringing the North Koreans into line or do you all still think that idiot john Bolton and his crew did it?
Given time and the right engagement the issues can be solved. Given threats and ultimatums progress will be lost.
Just my thoughts based on extensive interaction with these guys.
GarethinChina’s last blog post..Go! Smell the lost ART
Hi there Gareth..
Our New Prime Minister is arriving in China today i think… he is staying for four days..
Talking with china about everything from Trade to the Olympics and probably Tibet..
Saint Kevin as we are calling him (kevin Rudd) has received heaps of critism from heaps of places because of his visit…
He was the Diplomatic envoy or something to China and is fluent in Mandarin…
Most of the Critisism is because he isnt going to JApan.. but in an attemtp to ties for better understanding and better relation with China he is there…
St Kevin has the opinion we should see for ourselves, speak their language, find a common ground and move forward…. the human rights will be an issue, but he has said in the past we cant talk.. just look at the aboriginals…. perhaps this will give them common ground to which he is speaking…
As far as Australia is concerned china is a closer neighbour than the yanks, and we need to have a good relation between us and the rest of Asia…. we have signed some sort of trade agreement with China in recent days which the Americans and others dont like… because St Kevin isnt telling whats it for…. but hopefully this will be a start for the good relation we have with china in the past….
So I dont think a boycott is the way to go…. sport and politics…. but perhaps through someform of understanding and mutual respect lessons can be learned and benefits created…..
aussiecynic’s last blog post..Canberra Roos Saved, But lost the Wallabies!
Thanks very much Gareth for your considered and knowledgeable insights. Much appreciated.
As you say here in the West we do get a very biased viewpoint. I even read somewhere about Westerners being up in arms about the Chinese investments in Africa whereas the ex-colonists have exploited Africa for decades and continue to do so.
Here through the forum of Flowers, you have a wonderful outlet for presenting the real China to the world.
Keep it up
arvind’s last blog post..7 Tips to Stop Losing an Hour of your time EVERY Day
Thanks Gareth for your considered and knowledgeable insights. Much appreciated.
As you say here in the West we do get a very biased viewpoint. I even read somewhere about Westerners being up in arms about the Chinese investments in Africa whereas the ex-colonists have exploited Africa for decades and continue to do so.
Here through the forum of Flowers, you have a wonderful outlet for presenting the real China to the world.
Keep it up
arvind’s last blog post..7 Tips to Stop Losing an Hour of your time EVERY Day
You missed all the police attacks and horseback charges?
I saw the civil unrest caused by militant leaders of a dying industry encouraging football type thuggery amongst the trades union members. I saw policemen on horseback and foot trying to control and disperse dangerous crowds.
“Mass state sponsored brutalisation of the common British man,” is a sensationalist and highly inaccurate description of events.
Thanks, so now you can see how sensationalist things can get. I often see the descriptions in the Western press of things going on over here described similarly and also not fitting in with reality.
The description is very much subject to interpretation and view point. Hence, some of the things I saw written by the Western media didn’t even match the coverage that they were showing.
Welcome back Gareth! Black pudding eh? Yum love the stuff!
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Blood and gore – yuk!
arvind’s last blog post..7 Tips to Stop Losing an Hour of your time EVERY Day
Great to have you back here GIC – not sure why your comments are going into Spam again but we’ve just whistled the song ‘ please release me’ and there you were….
Welcome back Gareth!
Sounds like you had a great stag weekend. May you married life continue in the same way i.e. drunken weekends away with the lads
Did the missus come with you to HK?!
arvind’s last blog post..7 Tips to Stop Losing an Hour of your time EVERY Day
We have a rugby team here at my school. They were undefeated and they all took a trip to Ireland and they won 2 out of 4 against the IRISH!!!! and were American. Now that is hardcore!
Welcome back Gareth.
Ji here Zack – I’ve seen the American Eagles in action during my time playing for Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo – we played in Vegas, San Diego and Arizona – an awesome way to make 20 friends – just add (B) !
Gareth – you pose a very important and interesting question about why football (soccer) fans cannot behave the same way as your crowd did last weekend.
I reckon that the two sports attract a different type of specatator – the “yobs” go to football matches and the decent guys to rugby. Ok, a broad generalisation by me and I am sure the Everton fans on here will beg to differ with me.
Also football has built up a long tradition of allegiance to your team, come what may. Passions get stirred especially when the referee is seen to come from questionable or unknown parentage. You get my drift.
I haven’t been to a live football match for a while now. The last time was at Arsenal and I was in the family enclosure surrounded by fathers cursing away despite surrounded by their own young children!
arvind’s last blog post..7 Tips to Stop Losing an Hour of your time EVERY Day
Arvind, for a man of intelligence the definition of ‘yobs’ & ‘decent guys’ sounds ridiculously simplistic, particularly when grouping into football vs rugby fans; you’re only saving grace is your realisation of this lazy generalisation.
Think GiC’s & Urban Pagan’s discussions below are more illuminating.
golly gosh looky looky I see GARETH!!!!!!!!
Thank God your alive….
We were all getting worried… thought you may have been taken the torch up
everest or something… lol…:p
so pleased your back it really hasnt been the same …. hehehehehehehe… even Pagan has been nice… told you….. !
the anser is simple they are hooligans… !… thats its… the ones who beat up everyone are just hooligans.. drunken fools…. who need a good spanking when they were kids………
WElcome Back
aussiecynic’s last blog post..Tourists and backpackers Beware!
its largely because the Rugby fans can’t fight.
Or tend to be groups of middle aged, middle class, middle management work colleagues or associates as opposed to groups of mates going along and getting bladdered. so less likely to display violence in people who may be a work contact or colleague. Additionally the cost of going abroad to rugby could price out the average hooligan.
oh and it regularly goes off at rugby league games between the fans
So its purely class driven, even though loads of ‘firms’ had bank managers and brokers included in the fighting crew (if you believe the stories). Admittedly the likes of Carlton Leach, Bill Gardener and Cass Penant weren’t your local councilors but many anecdotes of footy yobs declared members came form all walks of life.
Sure its not some kind of machismo, bonding alpha male type of thing? They make it abroad for world cups and the like.
In addition you have to take into account many Rugby fans also play the game or used to and on the pitch you need to be polite to the ref and certainly you can’t question their decisions. Maybe the entertainment governs the behaviour, not many punch ups at screenings of gone with the wind but people believe violent films promote violence in the audience – although Rugby does have its share of punch ups and violence.
GarethinChina’s last blog post..BLOG idol – The Winners Show!
I don’t think its class driven per se. but it may have an impact on it. class is much more grey than it used to be.
it could just be that the people who go rugby aren’t that regional either. plus it doesn’t have a history of trouble does it?
It can get a bit messy with 15 ‘men’ in the after match bath…
One difference that always amazed me was the rugby pysche up – hitting yourself on the head before going out onto the field?
Yep, it’s a complex cookie this one.
Few years back I read a very good book on the subject of hooliganism, possible causes, etc., a real academic discussion & attempt to explain the reasons behind how it started & why it continues. The book was ‘Football Hooligans – Knowing The Score’ by Gary Armstrong, who was ‘embedded’ (to steal a phrase from the Iraq war) with a Sheffield United FC hooligan firm, the Blades Business Crew (BBC). Not an easy read, often going into very dry & academic sociology & criminology on the issue (Armstrong has a PhD in both), but worth persisting if you have a real interest in hooliganism.
I’m still not wholly convinced by all the arguments made in the book, but seems that most sociologists generally agree that football hooliganism arises due to town/city/regional tribalism, & as such tribalistic & ritualistic match day events (including violence) acts to enforce & create (a male) identity within the group/firm/crew. Historically it grew out of industrial working class culture, & included in this development were concepts of masculinity (e.g. strength & dominance through force).
Why football & not rugby? Don’t know, but could be partially explained by explanations given by GiC (on pitch example of rugby players deference to the ref vs the often antagonistic response of footballers) & Urban Pagan (historical violence between football towns), but think these may only be small factors in how & why it seems particular to football.
Hello Gareth
As an English person I would like to congratulate you and Wales on winning the 6 nations (but I cannot in my English heart do it)
England (Gods country will be back next year)
Can anyone please explain the scoring system in rugby. I have watched a couple of games & everytime I am more confused than the previous one
Dubai Guy’s last blog post..Go! Smell The Flowers
5 points for a try – when you ground the ball over the opposition try line.
2 points for a conversion, this is when you get the chance to kick the ball over the posts after a try is scored, directly in line with where the try is scored but any distance you like up or down the pitch.
3 points for a penalty. This is where you try and kick the ball over the posts from the ponit of the infringement (alternative is to kick for distance as if the ball goes out of lpay then you get the throw in as it was your penalty).
3 points for a drop goal. This si where you drop the ball on to the floor and then try and kick it over the posts, essentially you half volley it over the posts.
GarethinChina’s last blog post..Go! Smell the lost ART
Where as the scoring system in soccer is…
Overpowering rival fans with fists and feet – 2 points
Running towards 200 united windmilling your arms – 4 points
Singing ‘ And if, you know, your history’ in the kop – 8 points…
And on it goes…
Hey we have a similar scoring for cars…
hit a pedestrian = 20 points
an old pedestrian = 30 points
a complete idiot = 40 points
a police officer used to 50 points..
but you arent allowed to that anymore…
Dam official take the fun out of everything…
aussiecynic’s last blog post..Canberra Roos Saved, But lost the Wallabies!
Bwahh aaa aaaaa
Welcome back Gareth, now tell us the really bad stuff that went on on your stag do instead of dressing it up as a family day out at the rugby.
We all know it did!
Well we did have the evenings to consume more ale down Lockhart Road and see some Eastern European dancing.
A nudge and a literal wink eh…
SAY NO MORE!
‘Eastern European Dancing’ good euphamism.
Well it did involve poles.
LOL! Is that you in in the blue shirt GIC in the top right?
No. I was taking the photo and I’m no where near that fat. That is the GM of our Beijing operation, a rather portly chap from Waterloo in Liverpool.
“I’m no where near that fat,” says the big man. And there we all were thinking GIC was a corporate fatcat. Seems he might just be a corporate pussycat after all…..