GO! Check out International Women’s Day!

Posted on March 8th, 2008 by god

stop violence against women

Today, 8th March is International Women’s Day.

This day celebrates women and thousands of events are held throughout the world to inspire women and celebrate their achievements.

While there are many large-scale celebrations, there are also numerous rich and diverse local activities connecting women from all around the world ranging from political rallies, business conferences, government activities and networking events through to local women’s craft markets, theatrical performances, fashion parades and more.

Women have come a long way in the last 100 years and yet there is so much more to be done with repression and exploitation all over the world.

Do you think women have equal rights and opportunities in your part of the world?

And what achievements as a woman would you like to celebrate today?

women united

196 Responses to “GO! Check out International Women’s Day!”

  1. bibix says:

    Happy Lady’s Day! is wonderful to be a WOMAN… Girl Power :)
    bibix’s last blog post..Work Overseas

  2. Fertile Fish says:

    Really, is anyone bothered?

    Oh yeah, sorry, nearly forgot……… GIRL POWER!!!!!


  3. Jim & Em says:

    Jim here,

    ‘Em get the kettle on love’

    Sorry folks you weren’t meant to see that!

    Happy National light-dusting day to all.

    • Fertile Fish says:

      Oh Jimothy, that’s just plain sexist, what a terribly insensitive thing to say, dusting is a complicated task that requires objects to be moved and sometimes polish to be applied.

      Does Em, bring you cookies with your tea? If she doesn’t don’t let her get away with it, even if you don’t want them, give ‘em an inch, you know the script……….

  4. It’s woman day, hmmm… I must dash out and buy myself a set of skimpy underthings that merely pretend to do the job of covering my unmentionables and while I’m at it I’ll buy myself a barely there pink ‘Princess’ tee shirt that sets back the women’s rights movement a good 30 years, and also while I’m at it a pair of sweat pants with some sort of cute word emblazoned cutely across the backside. Since you know a guy is gonna’ look there anyway, I might as well be advertising something with my bum.

    funkygirl012003′s last blog post..Informercials and Advertising yourself

  5. aussiecynic says:

    In the past this day was used to protest equal pay and equal rights for women…. Globally today a women doing the exact same job trade or professional still get paid on average 16% less than a man and do twice the work…..
    We still have women being treated as property, and second class…. Until women are valued for the contribution we make to the human race as a species to society as a whole and to the economy in general we will never have equal rights, equal pay or equal standing….
    Women out number men globally current population has it at 52% female to 48% male…. however the majority of decision made for us is done by men….. isnt time we took charge of our wellbeing and teach the next generation of girls and boys that it really doent matter what gender you are when it comes to your worth as a person…..

    aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

  6. Bridget Jones says:

    Intl W’s day? What Intl W’s day? That’s the kinda nonsense that helps perpetuate the myth that woman is an “inferior” breed. Like hell we are! I say, stand proud every single day of the year girls and take no nonsense from anyone ha!

    Hmmm, what I think we actually need is a Intl MAN’s Day where us ladies get to see the lads parade in neckties and basically strut their stuff for our entertainment ha! 8) Wot ya girls say to this, shall we declare a Man’s Day at Flowers? ;)

    • Jim & Em says:

      Hey BJ welcome back – your name isn’t showing in blue at the moment (i.e linking back to your site)

      Just thought you should know – have you changed the email address or link?


      • aussiecynic says:

        Hmmm but then the guys would turn into a Look at Us ladies see how wonderful we are… arent you lucky you have us to look after you… I know its bollocks, perhaps we could could make them change their surnames when we decide to marry them and let them, raise the kids whilst we give them the occassional punch in face, pay them 20% less than us, not them go anywhere unless they in the company of a related Female…. stone them for being raped and treat them like dirt for having fathering a baby when not married… in a divorce they can have the kids and be us women can go and party…. we could all go to the pub and brag about the guy we got last night and then tell all what a tramp he is… etc… The thing is us women would never stoop so low….
        Oh Chook its great to see you… hopefully not so busy….

        aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

        • Fertile Fish says:

          Dammit AC, was getting excited for a minute, but then you chickened out at the last minute!

        • Bridget Jones says:

          And once we’re through, how about we blame it on religion to justify our actions eh? We should easily get away with that n’est-ce-pas? ;)

          Hmmm.. let’s see.. shall we blame it on Christianity? .. Nah, it won’t fly, people have forgotten the wars and violence for the establishment of the Church by now… Hinduism?.. Nah.. not strong enough methinks to shoulder the weight of our abuse… Hey I know! Islam! Yesss! Perfect scapegoat! We just have to say it’s condoned by Islam, no one will bother to find out if we’re saying the truth or not, actually methinks everyone will be happy to believe us! Islamophobia rules supreme nowadays n’est-ce-pas? :D

          It’s good too to see you alive and kicking as ever Chook… Yep, very busy at my end these days, will stop by whenever I get a chance.. How’s the cheese board going?

          • Jim & Em says:

            One of our most popular and vibrant threads here at flowers….

            More of the same please chooks! Blog idols a coming!

          • aussiecynic says:

            By Jingoes Chook I think you could be on to something, but arent you worried about hvaing your car torched by a bunch of extremist Christians running around you place… The Buddhists might be better they were orange robs and we could see them coming and I havent seen any female Monks recently have you…..
            Its repression by the Buddhist monks of Tibet thats why the chinese dont like him….
            And those monks are so Quiet we could blame anything and there would be no one to argue…. hehehehehehehe….
            What do you reckon Chook….

            aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

          • AngryfromEllesmerePort says:

            I think that the moon and tides are interacting at the moment

      • Bridget Jones says:

        Thanks Jem, it’s nice to be back and see you guys buzzing as ever.

        No, haven’t changed links. Bridget is done diarising for now. She got bored! Sometimes she’s like that, she starts things on impulse then gets bored fast ha! ;)

        Hope all is well with you guys.

        • Jim & Em says:

          All is cooooooool and the gang,

          Take a deep breath and get ready for blog idol where we’ll need you all to dig deep and help us choose the final 3 founders here at flowers!

          Should be fun….

  7. Hi Jim&Em,

    Glad to see that we are kindred spirits in supporting women in their fight for their rights. Stopping violence against women was my theme last year, and the same is true in 2008. It is a great problem and I hope your friends and readers will all rally round.

    Thank you for standing up.

    Blessings. May you two forever bloom together.
    Philip PJA64X

  8. Dubai Guy says:

    Do the ladies really need a day dedicated to them, just like so many other days? Or are they just clever marketing ploys by the greeting cards & gifts companies? I mean no offence to the ladies, we men are not complete without them & vice versa :-)
    Dubai Guy’s last blog post..A Strange Love Story

    • Jim & Em says:

      Ying and Yang AND us blokes are ALWAYS right, right Guy! 8-)

    • Urban Pagan says:

      True Dubai guy.

      Give them a slap and stop them from getting educated and speaking to any other male. It says it in the holy book after all.

      GO! Islam

      • Dubai Guy says:

        Violence against women is cowardice, and not something to be proud of. Stop confucing culture with religion mate, most of negative stuff you see muslim people doing, it really has nothing to do with Islam. Blame the people, not the religion :-)

        I don’t think any other explanation can best define the relationship between a man & his wife than this Quranic verse, which incidently led to the embracing of Islam of British economist and teacher, Kieren Ashorth. You can read the full article here if you want http://www.youngmuslims.ca/ymfn/archive_display.asp?ID=46

        “They are your Garments, and you are their Garments” (Chapter 2: Verse 187)

        Dubai Guy’s last blog post..Funny Inflation

        • AngryfromEllesmerePort says:

          Dubai Guy

          If Kieren Ashorth decides that Islam is not for her and wants top return to Christianity – what’s the potential consequences?

        • Urban Pagan says:

          So your holy book doesn’t say it is acceptable for a man to slap his missus about?

          • David S says:

            Aaah come on Urban! REPETITION!! You are out!

            We’ve had exactly these comments too often and argued successfully against them. Or is that deliberate word play “your holy book doesn’t say”?


          • Urban Pagan says:

            but david if you’ve read the excerpts from the text below taken from the koran you’ll see its acceptable to beat women- yet according to dg hitting women is cowardice. therefore the koran promotes cowardice. its not that tough really is it?

          • Dubai Guy says:

            You win urban pagan, no use arguing with you. Yes we muslims are wife beaters, brainwashed people, uncivilized, etc etc etc. We don’t deserve to be alive, the best remedy would be to kill all of us. Happy now? :-)
            Dubai Guy’s last blog post..Funny Inflation

          • Urban Pagan says:

            I don’t want anyone dead I just want an honest debate about what the book says. and it advocates beating women. correct? thats all.

          • Me confused Gary. What’s your point?

            If Islam advocates it and when muslims do it, it’s criticised.
            If Islam doesn’t advocate it and when muslims do it, it’s criticised.
            If Islam advocates it and when muslims don’t do it, it’s STILL criticised??

            Welcome back David S.

          • Urban Pagan says:

            I forgot nobody can speak out against islam can they?

      • Bridget Jones says:

        A breather in between meetings and I stop by my fave Flowers post…

        TOTALLY up to Bridget’s expectations ha! 8) Thanks Gary, this is getting seriously entertaining mate! :D More more more please! GO! Gary! ;)

  9. Jim & Em says:

    Em here.

    Hmmm I can see your point Dubai Guy – do we need a day just for us? We want equality and all of that and yet we have a day just for us.

    Yippeeeee and so we should. Because that’s what it is all about. All this rubbish that women are equal – we are not and sadly will not be for a long time yet (dare I say it) we are (in my opinion) by far more capable at so many more things than men yet we don’t jump up and down and tell the world what we have done. Perhaps we should.

    What am I talking about?

    Simple eg is the house. A woman will put on a few washes, clean the bathroom, do a general tidy up because that is what is needed. If the man of the house takes the rubbish out without being asked to we know about it for the next week. And if, heaven forbid he should put a wash on (and put the lights and darks all in together) then there is no hearing the end of it! We do things because they need doing. In my general experience men do things around the house for ‘brownie points’ or acknowledgment.

    If all the women went on strike for a week, we would be appreciated and valued not only for who we are but also all the unspoken things we do. Unfortunately there would be chaos to sort our when we came back!!! Then we would have a whole International Woman’s week declared in recognition of what we do!

    • aussiecynic says:

      Hi Em
      Great Point you make ….
      I went on strike at home for three week…. hubby and boys not happy but it went like this…
      Week one told hubby he could cook needed a break … so we have hot chips (take away) Pizza, and 2 minute noodles for a week…
      Week two kids asked where I had put there clean school clothes told them didnt wash them, hubby couldnt find clean spoon or plate in the cupboard, i hadnt washed up and no one else noticed the pile in the sink until they went looking for something, the toys werent pick up nothing was put away no sweeping no vacuum nothing….
      Week three went through week two again and by the end they gave up and the boys did their washing, and argued about the dishes… then told me how wonderful they were because they did it with out being told…. I just thats great because I am not doing it….
      eventually I did because I really couldnt handle it anymore.. but they all picked their stuff up …..
      When Hubby says I am nagging and I do … i tell him its his own fault… If he done what was asked when I asked 4 days ago I wouldnt have to keep asking him to do it… Would I….?
      If only women realised jsut how strong we are and how very capable of doing and coping the men wouldnt know what hit them….

      aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

      • Jim & Em says:

        lol! Well said AC!

        I take my hat off to you for lasting three weeks! I always threaten this with Jim, but if there is no food in the fridge he orders pizza, which I love, but my diet doesn’t! I only last about two days!

        In a way we are our own worst enemy as we take on more and more as we know that we can do it all!

        WWII and England was practically kept afloat by women – in the factories and the fields because the men were fighting (and what a great job they did!). But come the end of the war what happened? Men designed the fashions so that women would go back to being women – long, tight skirts which meant you had to be feminine! I think that was very telling – they were so afraid they wouldn’t get the jobs back and have to run the houses!

        I wonder where we would be today if women had stayed doing the jobs they did in the war and the men fitted around us?

        Hmmmmm . . . .

        • Urban Pagan says:

          But it wouldn’t happen

          a lot of the work was manual work and a man is far better physically able to do that.

          Plus a lot of the work women did in the war was for the war. Once it was over they could go back to keeping the home while the man did the important stuff. No shame in that.

          We had a glimps of what might happen in Britain when Thatcher was in power. Erm no thanks.

          • aussiecynic says:

            Margaret Thatcher was not a woman…. of that there is no doubt….
            Womens contribution here in Oz ws to keep the farms running, keep the steel works send steel, milling, food, retail, manufacturing, then there were those women who served in the war as nurses, drivers etc…
            When the men returned from serving it was left to women to go to nurse their men back to health, disabilities, post traumatic stress, depression, anxiety, panic attacks, nightmares, they also continued to run the household and many still held down jobs, there was also that huge number of women whose men did not return… and they still kept it together and raised their families and helped there friends…. women did do as much as the men and more after the war it was women left to pick up the peices left be it…. I will also point out that Wars are caused by Men and fought by Men and women are left to clean up after them once again….

            aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

          • Sir Cadbury Frost says:

            Thank god we in Britain had Margaret Thatcher.

            She saved the nation from massive economic decline, rescued us from the reputation we DID have of being “the sick man of Europe”, killed our rampant inflation and lay the foundation for the massive economic boom the country has enjoyed ever since.

            Even the rival ‘New’ Labour govt which has been in power since John Major’s somewhat nondescript tenure post Thatch was very quick to acknowledge the debt Britain owes to Margaret Thatcher, first by Uncle Tony and then his left wing in right wing clothes successor, Gordon Trustworthy.

            Why only last week did Gordon One Rule For The Scots And Another For The Rest Of The UK, heap praise on Margaret Thatcher (as did MPs of all parties) following her admissiom to hospital.

            Margaret Thatcher is one of (and a serious contender for THE) greatest Brit ever to have lived. Thank God she was there when she was.

          • Urban Pagan says:

            yep she’s a real heroine

            going to war in the falklands to resurrect her career

            cow-towing to pinochet

            sorting her lad out moody weapons contracts

            murdering the health service and industries

            putting millions out of work

            the only time she shed a tear ws when she got ousted by her own party. not long till we can toast her demise

          • Sir Cadbury Frost says:

            She is a real heroine, a genuine heroine, with unsurpassed foresight in closing down dangerously sick heavy industries and focusing the UK on the massively profitable service provider sectors that have lead the country to be the significant economic power it is today.

            No longer the Sick Man Of Europe, as we really were known (you might be too young to remember that). And although her cronies in the Tories tired of her ultimately (they were badly lost once she had gone) she did have the popular vote of the country, let’s not forget she won 3 landslide elections as evidence.

            I understand you don’t like her, that’s not a problem, her style was not to everyones’ taste, but her style drove her vision and her vision is the foundation of what carries the UK today.

            Even good old Gordon Stealth-Tax-Scotland-Gets-A-Better-Deal-Politically-Correct-Nanny-State-Enforcer and his predecessor, Grinning Tony, admit to that.

            Cheap pot shots are easy, by anyone at anyone, delivering what she ultimately did was undeniably an incredible achievement and if you live in the UK, you reap the benefits of it every day.

          • Urban Pagan says:

            so you agree that she is responsible for the mass immigration that is screwing britain at the moment then?

          • Sir Cadbury Frost says:

            No Sir, I do not.

            That accusation is the preserve of Uncle Tony Anything-For-A-Vote-Grinning-PC-Dictator and Gordon Back-Door-Taxation-But-Not-For-Scotland. They are responsible.

    • Dubai Guy says:

      Em, Men and Women were never equal nor they can ever be. I am not trying to say that men are superior, but what I am saying is that each gender has its positives & negatives. They both complement each other. A female is more superior to a man. The biggest respect & recognition a mother can get is that Islam asks its followers to find paradise at the feet of their mothers. A mother has three times more rights than a father.

      A girl today is going to become a mother tomorrow. She is not lower than me, not even equal. Rather I would say she is superior to me :-)
      Dubai Guy’s last blog post..Funny Inflation

      • aussiecynic says:

        Oh DG
        you sweet talker… every post you surprise me… come on girls group hug for Dubai Guy……!

        aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

        • Dubai Guy says:


          Dubai Guy’s last blog post..Funny Inflation

        • Bridget Jones says:

          It ain’t sweet talking Chook.. I got the same line from my Arab mates..

          Here’s how the story was told to me. Mohamet was asked who should be the most honoured person in the world. He replied, honour your mother. He was asked, and after her? He said again: honour your mother. And after her, he was again asked. Yet again the same answer, honour your mother. And after her, he was asked a 3rd time. Then he said, then honour your father.

          I think an unbiased google search would lead anyone to these accounts.. But hey let’s not!!!!! It’s WAY too entertaining the way things are going here!! Keep it up guys! You’re making me LOL so much since yesterday ha! More more more please!! :D

          Gary where are you?!! Things might get a tad lukewarm here if you don’t show up mate! Come ignite the fire! 8)

      • Urban Pagan says:

        Please explain this DG


        How a Man Should Discipline his Wife

        Table of Contents

        The permission to beat a woman in the case of rebelliousness is based on the Qur?an and the Hadith. “Admonish those women whose rebelliousness you fear, and leave them alone in their beds, and [even] beat them [if necessary]. If they obey you, do not seek any way [to proceed] against them” (Sura al-Nisa? 4:32). Modern jurists and writers have done their best to weaken this verse by interpreting “rebelliousness” as disobedience and adultery, where beating would be the last means a man can resort to in order to keep the woman from committing that heinous deed.(1) The old jurists and commentators, however, were more realistic and frank. Al-Shafi`i, for example, holds that a man has the right to beat his wife, but abstaining from it (namely from beating) is better.(2) The other verse that is used to prove the permissibility of beating is Sura Sad 38:44, ” ‘Take in thy hand a bundle of rushes, and strike [your wife] therewith, and do not fail in thy oath.’ We found him a steadfast man. How excellent a servant he was! He was a penitent.” The person spoken of here is the prophet Job.

        Qatada narrated: “Job’s wife disobeyed him. So the prophet of God (Job) swore that he would give her a hundred lashes if God healed him.”(3) Al-Jassas says, “There is an indication in this verse that a man can beat his wife for the sake of discipline, otherwise Job wouldn’t have sworn to beat her, and God wouldn’t have commanded him to do so after he had sworn. In addition to mentioning and permitting the beating of women in the Qur?an on the grounds of rebelliousness (in the verse that says, “Admonish those women whose rebelliousness you fear… beat them”), the story of Job indicates that she could be beaten for a reason other than rebelliousness. The verse that says, “Men are the managers of the affairs of women,” (Sura al-Nisa? 4:34) means the same as the story of Job. This is because it was narrated that a man beat his wife during the lifetime of Muhammad, and her family wanted a requittal. So God revealed, “Men are the ones that should be in charge of women because some have been favoured more thanothers.”(4) The judge Ibn al-`Arabi says, “The command to beat here is a permissive one.” He also refers to the aversion it involves: Muhammad said, “I hate that a man beats his female slave when in anger, and perhaps has intercourse with her on the same day.”(5)

        Beating should not be intense (mubarrih), as the jurists proved from the hadith pertaining to the permissibility of beating women. Sulayman Ibn `Amr Ibn al-`Ahwas narrated: “Ubai told me that he witnessed the address of departure of the prophet. He thanked God and praised him, and started preaching, saying, “I command you good-will for your wives, for they are captives to you that do not own anything, unless they commit a manifest obscenity [or adultery]. If they do [commit it], then God has given you permission to leave them alone in their beds and give them a bearable beating.”(6) Al-Sabuni says that this saying of Muhammad indicates that it is permitted to beat a woman for reasons of chastity (or decency).(7) As to the point that beating should not be intense or painful, it means “that you should not break her bones or leave a bruise.”(8) In spite of the fact that there are many hadiths that relate how hateful it is to beat women,(9) it seems that the jurists and the expositors in all ages (even in our days) chose the traditions that permit and prefer disciplinary punishment of women; such as “A man should not be asked why he beats his wife,”(10) which is now quoted frequently by the majority.

        There is still a difference of opinion, however, among scholars about the definition of “rebelliousness,” which gives a man the right to resort to beating as a last means. “Most jurists define legal rebelliousness [nushuz], which allows a man to beat his wife in order to remove that rebelliousness, in certain ways, such as disobeying a man in bed, and going out of the house without his permission. Some consider a woman’s abstaining from ornaments, provided that the man wants it, as rebelliousness. They say, ‘He may also beat her for neglecting her religious duties; such as ablution, praying…’ It appears that rebelliousness is a general thing that includes all sorts of disobedience caused by recalcitrance and disdain.”(11) It is strange that jurists consider beating women as a legal means of forcing them to have intercourse. It is stranger still that Muslim writers in the twentieth century try to justify this weird apology by the alleged discoveries of psychology in Europe. Antagonism to women and blind bigotry caused one of them (who claimed to be quoting a European scholar) to assert that “woman takes pleasure in being controlled by the man due to her instinctive obedience to him. The more he beats her, the more she admires him! Nothing saddens a woman more than having a husband who is always kind and loving.”(12) Muhammad Zaki `Abd al-Qadir says that “women like difficult men, who can break their [the women's] will by their own will. Even though they scream… in their heart of hearts they feel the pleasure of their weakness against the strength of their men.”(13) A few years ago, a progressive professor wrote that “beating should be [used] when a woman indulges in rebelliousness, spreading misery in her home, to her children and relatives, and to her husband. No one should think that beating has a brutal aspect, as there are women who beat their husbands, and others do not allow their husbands to approach them [physically] except after they have given them a thrashing, to cause them to bleed. This has been pointed out by psychological studies on perversion.”(14)

        Imam Muhammad `Abduh attacks the so-called “imitators of the west who disdain the legality of beating women but do not feel the same way about the woman who snubs her husband and treats him haughtily, putting him under her thumb, even though he is the head of the house.” He asks, “What corruption is it that will spread on earth when a righteous man is permitted to reduce the arrogance of a certain woman and bring her down from her conceited rebelliousness by beating her hand with a stick or slapping her on the face? If this is too much for their ethics, then their ethics have become refined to the point of nonexistence. In fact, many of their western leaders beat their cultured, educated wives, whether dressed or naked. This has been practised by their wise men, scholars, kings, and princes, since it is a necessity that the majority of people cannot do without in honouring these educated women. How then could a necessity in a general religion, which suits both rural and urban societies and all sorts of people, be condemned?”(15)

        The great reformer Muhammad `Abduh adds: “The legality of beating women is not reprehensible, as far as reason and instinctive nature are concerned, so that it would need explanation. This is a needful procedure when the environment and morals are corrupt. It is permitted when the woman’s return from her rebelliousness depends on it. But if the environment is good and women are receptive to advice and responsive to admonition, or give up [their evil ways] when deserted, then beating should be done away with. Each case has a judgment that suits it in the [Islamic] legislation, and, at any rate, we are instructed to be lenient and fair with women, and to retain them with decency or send them away with decency. The hadiths that speak of the instructions dealing with women are numerous.”(16)

        Scholars are painstaking in emphasising that not all women should be beaten. There are women (the majority) who do not need to be disciplined by beating. Yet, some say there is a divine wisdom in beating women, otherwise the Qur?an wouldn’t have given it as a solution to family problems. This last point makes it impossible for a Muslim to reject beating utterly, so the Muslim is at a loss, not knowing how to defend or justify it. He may justify it by the usage of beating as disciplinary punishment in the military and in schools, or compare beating with wars that keep order in the world!

        There are others, still, who try to break with marital rights and try to lift themselves above the head of the house and reject the dictates of their own nature. These lay marital life open to deterioration and decay; therefore the Qur?an laid out for such women two familiar ways of correction and discipline to curb them and bring them back to their natural position. Civilised Muslims have misunderstood this sort of remedy and described it as a dry desert-like remedy that doesn’t suit civilisation, which demands that honour and respect be paid to the wife.

        Islam was not intended for a certain generation, region, or environment. It is a guidance and a legislation to all generations, regions, and environments. In fact, physical punishment for deviates and perverts, who do not learn by exhortation or abandonment, is required by natural instinct and is determined by the social system.

        Nature has handed this [practice] down from father to son, as it has handed it down among the nations to the rulers. But for it, no family or nation would live right. Physical wars, which are based on weapons of iron and fire between civilised nations at the present time, are only an example of this disciplinary punishment that awaits aggressors. The divine laws perceive the phenomenon of war and fighting as follows: “If one of them should oppress the other, then fight the one who acts oppressively until they comply with God’s commandment,” and “If God did not defend [lit. push] some men by means of others, the earth would be ruined; but God possesses bounty [for everybody in] the universe.”

        Again, the truth is that those who are reluctant about the legislation of the Qur?an in this respect only flatter the emotions of a specific environment of women that we and everybody know. Such people pretend in their presence that they are keen on protecting women’s honour and dignity, and on putting her on a level that displays her in an extraordinary way.(17)

        The writer and philosopher Abbas Mahmud al-Aqqad does not lag behind the great reformer Imam Muhammad `Abduh in his arguments; he is even more forthright and gives more illustrations. He thinks it is right for a man to beat his wife when he is angry, to correct whatever mistake she makes. “Beating is not always a positive thing [to do] in every case and with every woman. Yet, beating is permitted since some women accept discipline only through it. The objections to beating made on the part of modern-day pedantics should be treated as a skirmish in political manoeuvers, not as a real discussion of the affairs of life and morals. There is only one consideration that validates the objection to beating as a punishment. Since God did not create women to be disciplined by beating, when nothing else seems to work. Anyone holding this view is oblivious to the fact that beating is approved as a disciplinary measure in the army and at school. So [this action is taken against] soldiers and pupils, whom we honour and respect, assuming the objection hinges on honour and respect. The superiors of these [soldiers and pupils] have more means of physical and moral punishment, deprivation and reward, that husbands do not have in the limited domain of the home.”(18)

        Al-Aqqad’s thoughts concerning beating women can be summarised by this statement: There are some women among them that cannot be disciplined except by beating; and there are even some neurotics who crave beating just as some patients crave some sorts of torture. The following is a quotation from the same author:

        Women themselves may make fun of these babblers [he means women's rights activists] who are only at home at parties and in nightclubs. Women know for sure that beating a disobedient and rebellious wife is not as appalling as it is claimed to be in the nightclubs and parties. There might be some elegant ladies who frequent those places of amusement who know more about this than the “ladies’ men” with their false “courtesy”. They know, as others also do, that those women do not hate it [beating] or think it evil.(19)

        Mr Ahmad Shalabi has the same difficulty in understanding the opponents of beating women “especially since beating is applied as a means of correction and disciplinary punishment only when it will bring about good results. It is ridiculous to imagine that there is no member of mankind who is not capable of being corrected by being beaten. Or why don’t those people object to the punishment of beating in the army?”(20) We don’t know what they might say if they knew that the punishment of beating has now been cancelled in the army and schools in some countries, and that modern psychology has proved that beating does not rehabilitate the mentality of a person, but ruins it, whether the victim is a child or a woman!

        OOOOOOH How liberating

  10. RYK says:

    Is Women’s Day a man created thing? Do women want a Women’s Day? Or is it one of those “anything for a free lunch with 3 hrs of shopping thrown in” type of day ? The only thing I saw in the papers yesterday were ads for Spa treatments at 50%, weight loss treatment discounts, Mango offering 20% off… is it just a big shopping thing?

    If I’m not mistaken Women’s Day was created to highlight the progress of working women… maybe should be renamed “Working Women’s Day”

  11. Urban Pagan says:

    I’ll believe in equality when women can move spiders, lok at mice and win a boxing. Until then you are the weaker gender. Thats why we let women do the cleaning and stuff so they feel of use.

    • aussiecynic says:

      G’Day there Pagan
      I kill spiders, play with mice and come here I’ll show you who would win at boxing…. :lol:
      Any women worth her salt knows men have one weak point, and its not his stomuch….
      The funny thing is I am finding is Men think they wear the pants but its us women that tell you which ones….

      aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

      • Jim & Em says:

        nicely said AC, again.

        The reason men feel they have to defend themselves is because they know we are so right in our comments. If they would only own it!!!

        • Urban Pagan says:

          I don’t think we need to defend our comments at all.

          Lets face it industry, technology, in fact practically every business sector is male dominated. Now it could be because women are not given a chance or it could be because men are just better at some things than women.

          I think its great that women can now happily do menial work IN ADDITION to housework. Its keeps their little heads focused so they don’t get distracted worrying about the big stuff.

          But I do feel sorry for women. Even their traditional industries are being usurped by men. Look at cooking for example. The top cooks are now male. Look at fashion. Male dominated.

          In fact can anyone think of a female dominated industry?

          I can’t.

          • aussiecynic says:

            Oh but Pagan you have missed the point completely…. dear little thing you are…
            I am so pleased to see you taking up the cause for womens rights,
            you are standing as a shining example to all men of how not to behave, how not to treat women and what not to look for in a man…. it couldnt possibly be the real you because we all think your wonderful with such charm and wit…
            The Fact that industry is run by men and is male dominated society is a direct result of men oppression of women until recent times..
            when my Grandmother married in the 1945 she was instantly sacked because married women did not work nor were they permitted to study without their husband permission and that was less then 70 years ago… women who did have a job where those whose husbands were unable due to illness or disabilty after the war, other working women were widows and divorcies…. however a divorced woman was seen as trash, all these women earned far less as a man worked 3 times harder….
            I would like to see anyman who can do the following to a decent standard..
            Get up at 6am, get the kids ready for school, make breakfasts all round, hang out 2 loads of washing, feed the animals get the kids to school on time before 8.45am get to work on time, go to school during lunch break because one of the kids is sick, organise a sitter for the afternoon and get the kid to the doctors after work, pick the kids up from daycare, bring the washing in, cook dinner, bath the kids, give sick kid medicine, organise sitter for sick kid for the next day, clean the house, do the ironing help the kids with their homework and sit and blog for an hour go to bed and get the next day and do it again….
            I know a fewsingle fathers and they have all had to leave work to look after the kids because they couldnt handle the pressure…
            Any person who things that running a house, raising kids, paying the bills, and working on top is menial and easy needs to try it for a month or two ……. I’d pay to watch that….

            aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

          • Urban Pagan says:

            hold on? you have to pick a kid up every day due to sickness?

          • Fertile Fish says:

            Sounds like Oz in 45 was like modern Islam. No?

          • Urban Pagan says:

            true but less stonings.

          • For the first time since you’re back as UP, you disappoint me Gary… I would have expected YOU to make a comment like Fertile Fish’s, in alignment with your usual impartiality and same treatment to all. I’m surprised you focus on kids’ sickness instead of how Oz women were treated by men.. So was I wrong then when I told DubaiGuy and BuJ in an earlier post that any apparent Islamophobia from you should be seen only as your unique style of provoking debate and keeping the garden buzzing..? Does Gary too have double standards at the end of the day..?

          • Urban Pagan says:

            my point bridget was ac’s typical day was not her typical day was it?

            as for islamaphobia not at al. I question every religion christian, hindu, buddhist, islamic. as is my right

            the bottom line is I have written nothing about islam that isn’t true. however this is neither rebuffed nor acknowledged. its either ture and in the book or its not. I KNOW it is and that is why no oposition is forthcoming.

          • Gary, I’m glad to have confirmation that you are not one of the majority w.r.t Islamophobia.

            Dubai Guy/ BuJ do you guys confirm/ oppose what Gary has written so far about Islam?

          • David S says:

            It is not a case of no opposition is forthcoming. Unfortunately, none of us have the time, all the time, to reply quickly in order to keep the debate ?real time?. I am responding as fast as I can.

            As an atheist (albeit with a healthy respect for people with religion) I make a repeated comment that the texts of the various religions? holy books are ancient documents written in a different circumstances to today?s society and can be interpreted to mean what the interpreter wishes the text to mean.

            Let?s take Christianity as the example (cut and paste as per your commentary on Islam):

            Far-right Christian author and American Vision president Gary DeMar was the guest on the February 2 broadcast of Today’s Issues, a program of American Family Radio, a network of nearly 200 radio stations owned by the conservative American Family Association (AFA). DeMar denounced “the continual assault on all things religion and, in particular, Christian,” and AFA president Tim Wildmon praised him as “one of the best writers out there in the Christian community and thinkers.” In the past, DeMar has advocated the installation of a theocratic government in the United States in which homosexuals, adulterers, and abortion doctors would be executed

            In his essay, “Theocratic Dominionism Gains Influence,” Clarkson stated that under a Christian Reconstructionist government, “women would be generally relegated to hearth and home. Insufficiently Christian men would be denied citizenship, perhaps executed. So severe is this theocracy that it would extend capital punishment beyond such crimes as kidnapping, rape, and murder to include, among other things, blasphemy, heresy, adultery, and homosexuality.”

            DeMAR: The definition of Christian Reconstruction is simply this: The Bible applies to every facet of life. That means not just the judicial aspects of life, such as civil government, church government, but business, economics — every facet of society. The Bible has something to say about each area. For example, on homosexuals: We do not believe that homosexuals ought to be executed. The Bible doesn’t say that homosexuals ought to be executed. What it says is this: If two men lie together like man and woman, they are to be put to death.

            I suspect most of the people on GSTF are of Western origin, and therefore are more likely to be aware of what Christianity means, so I use this as the specific subject shown above. I doubt that any of these people would agree with the extreme interpretations of the biblical texts pasted above. It certainly is not representative of what I was taught in Sunday School as a child.

            The point is that Islam and Christianity (also read Judaism – Women of course ,in the first Testament, being the ‘original sinners’) both offer extreme punishments for what modern society mainly considers to be unacceptable.

            The issue that Islam faces in the West is that those countries are predominantly presented with the extremist interpreted views, which are actively promoted by the sensationalist gutter media.

            Sadly there are still ?Islamic? societies with non-Islamic values mixed up in their interpretation of the religion. But let?s face it, these societies are the uneducated 3rd world states, they?ve have yet to emerge into the 21st century (or even the 19th century for that matter).

            I find Dubai Guy?s comment most interesting, ?I am sure you will find opposite point of view, shared by majority of Muslim scholars. Would you kindly copy paste them here too??

            I do believe Dubai Guy is right.

          • aussiecynic says:

            No I amnot saying your kids get sick everyday but I make the point that there is always something that comes up be it a sick kids, an injury, a hassle, a call from the school and it happens a lot….. however in place of a sick kids you could subsitute any of the following… repairman to your house, grocery shopping, bill paying, parent teacher interviews, sporting event at school, car repair, or most other unforseen event that you would encounter in a family situation ….
            So come on mate…. your usual classy reply would be welcome…

            aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

    • Bridget Jones says:

      I think you are confusing the word ‘equal’ with the word ‘same’ mate.

      OF COURSE we are the weaker gender, that’s why Bridget is more than happy to let blokes carry heavy stuff for her, fight for her (and over her too ha! ;) ) and physically protect her. We are NOT physically SAME.

      But when it comes to dignity as a human being, you and I are EQUAL. Or will you dispute that too my dear Gary..? ;)

  12. Jonathan says:

    Ouch Urban!

    Actually I was going to say what about Flowers’ starting a campaign for National Mens Day?

    Sorry Girls – I’m still going to hold doors open for you and give up my seat to you on the bus or train…. you’ll have to blame my mother for teaching me manners…

    Jonathan’s last blog post..If you’re not getting any satisfaction…

  13. Dubai Guy says:

    Something wrong with the commenting system? One of my replies to Urban Pagan has completely disappeared, is there some kind of filter in place? :-)
    Dubai Guy’s last blog post..Funny Inflation

  14. Jonathan says:

    just heard this on radio 2 – dogs are a mans best freind – want proof? shut your dog and your wife in the boot of your car for an hour then open the boot and see which one is pleased to see you.

    V.Funny (well it appealed to my sense of humour)

    Jonathan’s last blog post..If you’re not getting any satisfaction…

    • aussiecynic says:

      Oh thats a goody…..
      hmm a real keeper there try this one…


      Before I lay me down to sleep,
      I pray for a man, who?s not a creep,
      One who?s handsome, smart and strong.
      One who loves to listen long,
      One who thinks before he speaks,
      One who?ll call, not wait for weeks.
      I pray he?s gainfully employed,
      When I spend his cash, won?t be annoyed.
      Pulls out my chair and opens my door,
      Massages my back and begs to do more.
      Oh! Send me a man who?ll make love to my mind,
      Knows what to answer to ?how big is my behind??
      This man will love me to no end,
      And always be my very best friend.

      MAN?S POEM

      I pray for a deaf-mute nymphomaniac with huge boobs
      who owns a liquor store and a golf course. This
      doesn?t rhyme and I don?t give a S#$T

      aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

  15. Urban Pagan says:

    notice how the womans poem is all about getting attention the blokes is about a few simple cosmetic wishes.

    as a quick disection

    Before I lay me down to sleep,
    I pray for a man, who?s not a creep,
    One who?s handsome, smart and strong.
    One who loves to listen long,


    One who thinks before he speaks,
    One who?ll call, not wait for weeks.


    I pray he?s gainfully employed,
    When I spend his cash, won?t be annoyed.


    Pulls out my chair and opens my door,


    Massages my back and begs to do more.


    Oh! Send me a man who?ll make love to my mind,


    Knows what to answer to ?how big is my behind??


    This man will love me to no end,
    And always be my very best friend.


    It sounds to me you all need a gay friend as no hetero man would do this

    • Indeed Gary. Since I’ve stumbled across Flowers, I’m slowly but surely coming to terms with this stark reality… No hetero man would do this. That is, no BRITISH hetero man would. The French do. Really. I’m not being sarcastic. Just sharing an impression based on months of interactions here, and a few real-life ones… I’m finally accepting that you guys are not what I always thought/hoped/wanted you to be…

      Yes Gareth, I know that you explained to me about the myth of the ‘British gentleman’ months back, but still, I fantasised.. I guess I idealised the ‘British gentleman’ to myself.. Now I know better..

      Gary, your dissection makes me nostalgic tonight. Thinking of my French ex and what I bid adieu to.

      • GarethinChina says:

        So you are assessing all British men against Urban Pagan, we did point out to you the fact that you can’t judge a race on a small sample.
        I tend to try and offer fair and balanced view points and treat women equal to men. Often this can be exactly what they don’t want.
        Open your own jam jar, door? Clearly not, as such I perform these and other tasks routinely.
        I know plenty of Frenchmen who are many miles from the model you define here, indeed its one of the reasons I have very little time for the French, based on personal contact and experience. You seem to view them through rose coloured spectacles yet have an extremely poor hackneyed view of the British courtesy of UP winding you up – grow up woman, learn to read between the lines.

        Regarding womens day, whatever. However just see how far you get having men only days, men only clubs. Every time a club is men only it is challenged and generally women have to be admitted. The same is not reciprocated.

        Women are wonderful, interesting and beautiful creatures but I do think some balance is required as we are starting to head too far the wrong way. Behave like a victim and you’ll be treated like one.

        Right now in my job I have to fill out succession plans and identify people for promotion and development. I have been given a form where I specifically have to track ‘women and minorities’. Here in China 52% of my workers are women – hardly minority. I put myself down as the minoroity as there is no other single white male on my headcount. I was told this was not allowed as I was not considered a minority? huh, 2200 Chinese to 10 foreigners in the comany as a whole.
        Prior to coming to China I had a girl working for me in the UK who was woefully underqualified and as such paid less for the same job – this was made clear when we hired her, she was to get the qualification or accept the lower grade as her worrk needed more checking by myself. After a couple of years I wanted to promote her but her qualifications didn’t match up as she did nothing about it.
        I delayed the position appointment for 1 year and booked her onto a day release college course with the understanding that she would complete and pass then get promoted with the associated pay. She gave the course up after 1 month and complained again about her pay and position one month after that. She also had 3.27 days off per month on average over 2.5 years, compared to 1.06 for the men.
        After I left her performance deteriorated and corrective action (according to company procedure) was taken. She responded by claiming her boss was a mysoginist however could offer no evidence nor was she backed up by 5 other women who worked for or alongside the same guy. The action was dropped against both of them – clearly a cop out.
        She was also prone to burst into tears – how professional is that? Luckily the HR manageress told her to stop that straight away as it only works on men.

        So, why must I specifically target women? It was recomended to me 3 times to promote her but each time her KSA (Knowledge, skills, abil;ity) matrix didn’t stack up nor did her qualifications. When her KSA did stack up she spurned the chance to gain the qualifiaction at our expense and used tears as a bargaining tool. Routinely the enigneering council and various lobbying groups call for more women in senior engineering and business positions – why? When I did my degree there were only 5 women to 188 men. Surely a rate of 2% would be acceptable yet the targets are closer to 40%.

        I promote and develop people based on ability via a KSA plan. The KSA’s are reviewed without any names attached, the names are hidden (I can’t remember individual scores as I keep dozens of these) yet I still get names recommended to me as suitable.
        When the world is data driven this whole argument is moot and the person is chosen on ability.
        This is exactly what I do in industry and as such I feel it is totally unnecessary for me to track ethnicity or sex yet the culture of women as victims forces me to do this.

        Clearly the world does not all operate in the data driven method I do, hence the cases we see of discrimination, however branding everyone with the same brush is a very dangerous thing to do.
        I must also point out that I had another female staff member who was promoted on her KSA and she went on to be a great employee right up until she left to have kids.

        For the record I open doors, walk on the road side, give up my seat on trains and all the other things a man is expected to do without request of prompting. Silly little girls putting forward rampant generalisations tend to push womens rights much further back than any man could ever do.

        • Bridget Jones says:

          Can’t Gary tell anymore when Bridget attempts to wind HIM up? 8)

          Does anyone here seriously believe that Bridget thinks that, if Gary and she ever meet one day, he won’t open doors for her, give up his seat for her, and walk on the road side? Let alone punch anyone who’d mumble the shadow of an insult towards her?


      • aussiecynic says:

        Sounds like this needs to be translated so a bloke can understand….

        Before I lay me down to sleep,
        I pray for a man, who?s not a creep,

        A guy who actual cares, and does not peak….

        One who?s handsome, smart and strong.
        One who loves to listen long,
        One who thinks before he speaks,

        A bloke who has brain as well as good looks,

        One who?ll call, not wait for weeks.

        A guy who is considerate and thoughtful even if he doesnt get his leg over…

        I pray he?s gainfully employed,

        a guy who isnt going to sponge of us for the rest of their days..

        When I spend his cash, won?t be annoyed.

        If I do need to to get something as he does he wont be to bothered because sharing is part of it.. even if he is not get his other leg over..

        Pulls out my chair and opens my door,
        A guy with manners regardless of whether he gets his leg over

        Massages my back and begs to do more.
        who is thoughtful and caring… this will get his leg over

        Oh! Send me a man who?ll make love to my mind,

        Who doesnt need to get his leg over

        Knows what to answer to ?how big is my behind??

        Because saying its big, wont get his leg over

        This man will love me to no end,
        And always be my very best friend.
        and that will guarentee he gets his leg

        Hows that i think it is reasonably easy to understand…..

        aussiecynic’s last blog post..They have Found Ned Kelly

  16. Urban Pagan says:

    the same french men who routinely have mistresses. ace,

    • That’s your reality Gary. Mine is different. But maybe that as well you can’t accept anymore? That someone can have a different vecu from what you choose to believe as Gospel truth? I said it when I first came upon Flowers months back. I will say it again now. My French ex was awesome. And faithful. A gentleman. Nothing any British man will say about the French can change that fact.

      Stop for a second in the crusade Gary… Sit back a little and reflect .. Healthy debate is one thing.. An inability to accept a view/ a vecu that’s different from yours and to respect differences is something else.. I applaud and respect you for the first. I struggle to admire you for the second mate :’-(

      Take care.

  17. Urban Pagan says:

    but he’s an ex

    for a reason

    when relationships end people tend to focus on the good stuff and forget the bad stuff

    As for the debate thing the only thing that narks me is people cowtowing to people to be sensitive as opposed to challenging their viewpoint. anyone can feel free to challenge me on atheism and I’ll answer.

    • He’s an ex.

      For a reason.

      Not the ones that are along the lines of infidelity or disrespect or the likes.

      And I am not idealising him as you may think. But any possible “bad stuff” doesn’t change the fact that he was awesome and FAITHFUL.

      That was the issue we are discussing right?

      As for your point re: atheism v/s religion, it’s not the ‘debate’ I was addressing here. Again, I referred directly to your comment about the French having mistresses in response to me speaking highly of my ex.

  18. Lib says:

    Blimin eck!

    That took a bit of reading.

    Personally I have no problem with a day being dedicated to us women. In fact, I embrace it.

    Why shouldn’t we have a day that celebrates everything female? We are an absolutely fantastic equal part of the human race, with the ultimate power of creating another life (alright that bit takes 2 but you get what I mean)

    Being singled out as being a woman isn’t always a bad thing. And International Womens day doesn’t have to be derrogatory.

    So let’s be worhsipped, we deserve it.

  19. BuJ says:

    Thanks again Bridget Jones for your kind invite. I unfortunately do not have the time to read the full strand of long comments on this post and without that I cannot give you a true answer of my opinion.

    However, I have this to say, it is one thing to debate about religion in a respectful way or to learn about religion. You can always find forums and outlets to do the former be it online or with friends or otherwise, as for the latter, you can always pick up a book about your religion of choice and learn more about it in a neutral way.

    On the other hand if you are either too bored and want some thrills, or you just want to be sarcastic with people’s beliefs or might just want to make fun of things you do not believe in, then I find it distasteful to drag other people into this activity of yours in the name of “debate” or “free speech”.

    Thus I find no point for me taking part in this blog because there is less of the stuff in the top paragraph and more of the stuff in the bottom paragraph.

    However if anyone has a genuine interest to learn more about Islam then I’m sure you can ask DubaiGuy nicely or you can help yourself with Google.

    Have a nice day everyone, and I look forward to hearing from you if you have a genuine interest to learn.



    BuJ’s last blog post..Say No ?? ???????

    • Jim & Em says:

      Thanks Buj and we appreciate your input here at flowers – we’re trying to raise awareness through the various topics and your voice is appreciated.

      Our garden has it’s fair share of thorns and we are hoping to attract more UAE based bloggers at GO! Smell the flowers and rather than moderate comments we let things go in the name of understanding, empathy and learning.

      We truly appreciate your input to date and hope it can continue.

      Jim & Em

    • Bridget Jones says:

      I can only say that I am sorry BuJ that you are left with this impression of Flowers.

      When some people shared their opinions of islam about a month ago here, I thought they took the stand they did through a genuine lack of knowledge about you guys and that finding out more would result in a more balanced view and a desire to find positive common grounds amongst all cultures and religions. I (naively maybe, but sincerely for sure) thought it would create bridges between East and West at Flowers to invite Arab bloggers here.

      I must say I have been unpleasantly surprised by some of the reactions I have witnessed here, despite that knowledge being shared. On the part of some, the only agenda seems an obsession to find fault with you guys at any cost. It brings to mind Rudyard Kipling’s words, “OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet”.

      However, I believe that some of us (Gareth for example) have genuinely taken the opportunity to learn more through our interactions with you and DubaiGuy. So please do not consider that you spoke to deaf ears at Flowers.

      As regards Gary, I will probably sound like the devil’s advocate here, but please do not take his stand as Islamophobia. I for one believe him when he said yesterday it was not. I hope you will trust someone who’s been long enough at Flowers to have learnt some about the regulars.

      Since it was me who invited you to Flowers BuJ, it is for me to apologise on behalf of anyone here if any offence has been caused, and would like you to know that some of us at Flowers are genuinely interested to find out more about other cultures and to encourage understanding and mutual respect. Kipling also said “But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
      When two strong men stand face to face, tho? they come from the ends of the earth!” I have seen such men at Flowers.

      I hope to see you again here BuJ.

      • I stand by my claim, I am interested to know much more about the middle eastern culture and values and this post has taught me a lot regarding tolerance, attitudes and interpretation.
        I think DG and BuJ both acquitted themselves very well.
        As such it is now easier to see the tolerance levels, general demeanour and attitude of our colleagues who practice Islam, I can also see that the generalisations of interpretation do not apply as a whole. Like any society there are those at each end of the spectrum.
        Certainly there are plenty of wife beaters in the UK as well as child murderers and so on. Clearly each society has its issues but working together at a personal level I have increased my understanding.
        I deliberately kept out of it to see how it progressed.

        If DG and BuJ don’t come back then that is their choice and we must respect that. If they leave based on this volatile subject alone then maybe we have to accept we won’t always keep our new friends here but the cost of that would be censorship and we decided against that.

        GarethinChina’s last blog post..Go Smell the rains

        • aussiecynic says:

          Well put both of you…
          And I too Apologise for any offence taken, we do try and show the range of views, and opinions… throw it out there and see what comes back…
          It is interesting however how many hold the stereotyping up as a shield to all… I certianly hope i am not holding the banner for Aussies, christ that would stupid, just the same as any person is held up as the stereotypical model regarding any faith… there is good bad and grey areas in everything…
          The majority of Westerners do genuinely want to try and understand, however in a serious discussion I am finding that all to often, offence is taken rather than face the challenge of explaining without the religious doctrine…
          What we see is the results of extremists, the reaction to those cartoons for examples… so rather than taking your bat and ball and going home… stay and let us see for ourselves, perhaps that is why you are here to show us that what we see on the news and hear through the media as well as the propagander is just bogus nonsence…..
          Otherwise thats all we have to go on…

          aussiecynic’s last blog post..Thanks Paul I Got Tagged

          • David S says:

            Thank you Bridget for speaking on behalf of common sense. I have been delighted to see BuJ and Dubai Guy on GSTF, and sincerely hope they both continue here.

            Diversity – only interaction will enable understanding.

          • Bridget Jones says:

            And thanks right back at you David for always bringing in your balanced perspective. Bridget thinks you are one of Kipling’s strong men :))

          • Bridget Jones says:

            “however in a serious discussion I am finding that all to often, offence is taken” – Please allow me to say here that neither Dubai Guy nor BuJ ever said they had been offended by anything we said. It was Bridget who thought that she should offer apologies as a matter of politeness and ‘hospitality’, seeing she was the one to invite DubaiGuy and BuJ to Flowers.

            “stay and let us see for ourselves, perhaps that is why you are here to show us that what we see on the news and hear through the media as well as the propagander is just bogus nonsence”. Very well said, Bridget totally agrees!

            Let’s also bear in mind that this is a two-way street! In the same way that our opinion of them may get shaped through their interactions with us at Flowers, we should expect that their perception of us may similarly be affected by how we come across here!

            Glad to hear you say that a majority of us genuinely want to build bridges! :))

    • RYK says:

      Buj, I say this with all due respect, what qualifies you to take the moral highground on respect and define what a style of debate or free speach should be? Just because you are religious person? Or is it because you believe that you are more religious than others? Or is it because you believe that religious people are “better” than non religious people?

      From you comment above you do not seem to appreciate free speech, but would like the speech to be tailored to a specific tone or content and not spontaneous.

      • David S says:

        But RYK, BuJ is also exercising his right to free speech by electing to not take part in the post and stating why he wishes not to.

        There was no mention of religious people being better than non religious people. Just a well written statement of his opinion, which he has every right to express.

        • RYK says:

          er David, did you read this by Buj ?

          “On the other hand if you are either too bored and want some thrills, or you just want to be sarcastic with people?s beliefs or might just want to make fun of things you do not believe in, then I find it distasteful to drag other people into this activity of yours in the name of ?debate? or ?free speech?.

          1. On the other hand if you are either too bored and want some thrills – running down people
          2. or you just want to be sarcastic with people?s beliefs – saying that what has been said is sarcastic
          3. or might just want to make fun of things you do not believe in – once again running down the commenter
          4. then I find it distasteful to drag other people into this activity of yours – saying that in his opinion these comments are distasteful. Why say it ?
          5. in the name of ?debate? or ?free speech? – claiming that this is not the way debate and free speech should be held

          • David S says:

            Er, yes RYK I did, and I stand by my comments.

          • RYK says:

            David, I am not criticising his freedom of speech, he is the one criticising other’s style of speech. I am criticising his criticism and his running people down (I hope this is still making sense). What gives him the right of running someone down? No one else has done that here on this blog, no matter how much they have disagreed with others. It is downright nasty of him of run others down in the way that he has done.

          • David S says:

            Dodgy ground here I think RYK. I saw no “running people down” in his commentary, because there wasn’t any.

            His comments were expressed eloquently and represented his point of view and I strongly disagree that anything BuJ has written differs from the way other contributors express themselves. Take the subject matter out of the equation for a second (in fact leave it in, we should not interpret it that religion is a taboo topic) and all you have got is someone stating their point of view.

            I do it, you do it (we are both doing it now) and most other people on this blog do the same as well, and thankfully BuJ is no different.

          • Bridget Jones says:

            Seconded David.

            RYK – No one has ever run anyone else down here – are you kidding mate?! ;) You seem to have missed the real juicy bits here ha! 8)

          • Urban Pagan says:

            ok so please explain what he meant by the consequences of what people type?

            I am with ryk 100% here.

            as I see it all he has come here with is having a go at people who dare question him. thats a really great input.

          • RYK says:

            David & BJ, and anyone else who wish to “cover up” what has happened, this is what I have to say to you: The Bush era is drawing to an end, so GO! change with the times, my dears !

          • David S says:

            Urban, of course you are with RYK, would not have anticipated anything different.

            RYK, I think the majority of the world’s population are looking forward to the end of the Bush era.

          • Bridget Jones says:

            RYK, you don’t know Bridget at all if you think she’s the kind who ‘covers up’.

            When I say something I mean it (except of course when I am jesting, but I trust the regulars are able to differentiate between the two tones). When for some reason I can’t say what I truly think, I stay quiet.

            I genuinely believe BuJ has not said anything which was in any way different from the way people express themselves here, just like I mean it when I say I believe Gary harbours no Islamophobia.

            No ‘cover up’ in either case.

    • Dubai Guy says:

      BuJ, thanks for having faith in me, I am not a religious scholar. But whatever little I know, I try to share here without trying to offend anyone. At least that is my intention :-)
      Dubai Guy’s last blog post..Funny Inflation

  20. Urban Pagan says:

    RYK post of the week/month!!

    Thats my deep seated point. Certain ‘religious’ people feel free speech is great as long as it backs up their position. As soon as it doesn’t its disrespectful. And this disrespect is based on religion.

    However I am not religious.

    At all.

    I therefore find religious viewpoints and judgement disrespectful. I am comfortable to debate this with anyone. However when the boot is on the other foot the religious will always claim distaste or disgust.

    As I see it religion is a control mechanism. It controls the poor. It controls women.

    I was AMAZED that there was a comparison made before on homsexuality being akin to incest. This from a religion who by their own sacred text the messenger met his wife at aged 9. And consumated when? Spin that anyway you want.

    The relgiious always claim offence. Why? To attempt to control. Previously the fear of ‘hell’ would control. But if you don’t believe it as a concept then the religious have no power. So they claim the moral highground. How anyone of an intensely religious lifestyle can claim any moral highground is laughable.

    After all you have the catholic church who are against contraception buying up shares in companies who make contraceptive products.
    You have the peace loving c of e making money off missiles.

    Its al hypocrisy built out of fear.

    The reason I believe the majority of women on here don’t find offence in the global islamic view and treatment of women is because as non-muslims they will never be on the receiving end of the treatment. So much for solidarity eh sisters?

    And finally RYK Buj would not appreciate free speech as his speech is controlled by his religion. How can that be positive?

    To conclude I am not anti islam. Anti christian. I am anti oppression. And religion from what I see oppresses.

    For a blog that emphasises creativity and freedom of expression this kow-towing to anyone religious is at best cowardice and at worst hypocrisy.

    • RYK says:

      GW“I’ve got God’s shoulder to cry on. And I cry a lot. I do a lot of crying in this job. I’ll bet I’ve shed more tears than you can count, as president.”

      • David S says:

        Fabulous! Good old GW.

        It’s comments like this that remind me why the Presidential Candidate elections are so important and therefore newsworthy, bored with it you may be, but that country is electing the most powerful human on the planet, and that affects us all.

  21. BuJ says:

    Hi Guys,

    Many things going here at once, so might not be able to address it all properly.

    to Bridget and Jim:

    Thanks as always for your invites and input. I value your interaction and I respect your values! I think this is a great thing. However my comment was not meant as a criticism or a rebuke, it was simply a statement that I have my limitiations and by inviting me, you won’t get all the answers you desire about Islam, etc.

    to RYK:

    Thanks as well for your input. However I invite you to re-read my initial comment. I am not as arrogant as you might think I am. In fact I am quite the opposite and hope to be able to convince you of that one day. Me being religious or not has nothing to do with free-speech and my rights to force it on others. These two are chalk and cheese as far as I’m concrened.

    What I meant with my initial comment was that I do not think I can contribute due to the factors mentioned above. I never extended this to other people, as this is not upto me. I only speak about myself RYK.

    One of the reasons I do not want to get involved is because I do not think some people are serious. If they wanted education then there is Google as I previously mentioned. In my book, sarcasm and religion never mix. I would never ask a Christian or Jew a sarcastic question about their religion because I think it is rude.

    I hope you understand my position now.

    To Urban Pagan (and everyone really):

    “And finally RYK Buj would not appreciate free speech as his speech is controlled by his religion. How can that be positive?”

    This comment above is exactly the kind of assuming (and rude in my opinion) comment that makes me want to mind my own business with this blog. Sorry, but what do you or anyone on this blog know about my or my religion? You know nothing. How can you make such generalising and sweeping statements?

    I suggest you seriously think of the consequences of your comments before you write them. This proves how little you know about me and how little you want to learn about me or Islam.

    To David:

    Thank you. You’re an example of moderation, respect, and mutual understanding. We all have a lot to learn from you. I have a lot to learn from you. I salute you.

    BuJ’s last blog post..Say No ?? ???????

    • David S says:

      BuJ, thank you, that is very kind of you, but the same is true of of both yourself and Dubai Guy. I look forward to you staying with us.

      Many of us on the blog have the desire to learn about other cultures, whether we live in them as expatriates or not.

  22. BuJ says:

    Hi David,

    I think we both posted at the same time so I didn’t have the chance to reply to your comment below:

    “But RYK, BuJ is also exercising his right to free speech by electing to not take part in the post and stating why he wishes not to.

    There was no mention of religious people being better than non religious people. Just a well written statement of his opinion, which he has every right to express.”

    Thank you. This reinforces my belief (this is not religious) that RYK and UP probably did not read my comment carefuly and almost certainly did not understand my point. Perhaps I should have been clearer and more concise, and perhaps they should have asked me to clarify. We just can’t go off tangents and go blaming people or their religions.

    David’s point is valid and mirrors mine. I am choosing what to say, and what to participate with and choosing my audience. This does not mean I am anti-free-speech.

    BuJ’s last blog post..Say No ?? ???????

    • David S says:

      Hi there BuJ, yes you are right, RYK did not say that you said etc, etc…. But the rest of my comment was correct!

      Apologies to RYK on that point

      • David S says:

        Qualifier: above does not read properly……

        RYK asked the question if religious people were better than non-religious people, rather than saying BuJ had written that.

  23. Urban Pagan says:

    David?s point is valid and mirrors mine

    how could anyone get the impression you are arrogant with that eh?

    and as for consequences of what I write?
    how arrogant.

    what do I know of you and your religion? I know you are a muslim and b elieve the word of the koran A book that agrees with stoning homsexuals and beating women. Am I wrong? Nope.

    You mix condescension with arrogance on a new level. Well done.

    You could always try to refute my points. But you can’t. Because I write the truth from your own text.

    • David S says:

      Sorry Urban, I did not see any arrogance or condescension, just a well thought out balanced reply explaining BuJ’s point of view.

    • Dubai Guy says:

      You are alwas right mate, just like everyone else ;-)

      I think most problems arise because each one of us thinks he is the right one. Even among us muslims, there are many who believe that only they are on the right path while the rest of the muslims will go straight to hell.

      Despite sometimes your comments being harsh, but still they have helped me study & research stuff which I wouldn’t have done otherwise. So I think I must thank you for that. Take the example of wife beating, watching this video removed many doubts & clarified a lot of things for me. Rather, I must say it made my faith stronger :-)

      Would love to have your comments about these videos.


      This video is by Yusuf Estes, who was a christian priest before becoming muslim & now I think he is one of the leading Muslim scholars in the US


      Dubai Guy’s last blog post..Funny Inflation

      • Jim & Em says:

        Awesome learning Dubai Guy – the very essence of what we hope flowers will become!

        Many flee off and take comments personally rather than digging deeper which in any decent garden has to be the case.

        We may need to start a fresh post on this topic – Founders feel free to step up and keep it moving.


        Jim & Em

      • RYK says:

        Don’t fall for Urban’s bait of wife beating and stoning !

        Anyway when Urban talks about Wife Beating what he means is that Arab women are known to beat their husbands at home, just like British women :)

        • Fertile Fish says:

          And Indians abort their little girls before they can become women.

          • RYK says:

            looks like one of those abortions survived and grew up to be you !

          • Fertile Fish says:

            Who told you? Oh I get it! You must get to meet lots of aborted little girls over there.

          • RYK says:

            eeks, what a jaded comeback

          • Fertile Fish says:

            And what quality of response did you give?

          • Gareth In China says:

            Whoa, well that told you RYK, clear case of getting your arse kicked by the devastating come back king futile fish.
            You want to hear him say ‘Would you like fries with that?’ professionally there is nobody to touch him, ‘Hot apple pie sir?’ is another gem he’s managed. His next gold star gets him on salad duty.

          • Fertile Fish says:

            “come back king”? – Never went away

            “futile fish”? – Now that really is primary school wit at its most mediocre

            The rest of it? Pathetic for someone who claims to be the big time hot shot know it all major company director.

            You want to try examining yourself every now and again GIC, oh and please spare us your usual small-man-syndrome responses along the lines of:

            “In my capaciy of managing a major international manufacturing operation, I am frequently called upon to utilize my most impressive array of academic qualifications to resolve problems of intergalactic magnitude. Bearing in mind the importance of my decisions which affect thousands of subordinates I have to ensure my standards don’t slip and therefore I have PricewaterhouseCoopers conduct a GIC examination on my credibility and effectiveness twice a week. I think I more than adequately examine myself Mr Futile Fish – Smugly yours GIC”

          • Gareth In China says:

            Ahhhh bless, feeling inadequate are we.
            Super size sir?

          • Fertile Fish says:

            No thank you, I am watching my weight Mr GIC.

            Judging by your offer it looks like you’ve finally found a position equitable with your ability eh?

          • Gareth In China says:

            As your girlfriend might say if you could get one “wake me up when you’re finished”

          • Fertile Fish says:

            The standard of your responses are petering out to the point of complete banal playground ineptitude. It hardly merits a response.

            Either up the ante GIC, or give up altogether.

          • Bridget Jones says:

            I know what they say, when two elephants cross fire, little nothings like silly-little-girl-Bridget-who’s-learning-to-read-between-the-lines-to-become-a-grown-up-woman should stay clear out of the way!

            But Jeez! I couldn’t stop myself from commenting! I think history is being written at Flowers at the mo guys!! This is the first time someone is taking GIC on!

            Like Lib said Gareth, not that I want anyone to wind you up, you being the closest to a Godfather Bridget has at Flowers and all that! But hey, no one ever tried winding you up before! I have to admit that it is quite entertaining to watch for the rest of us ha! ;)

          • Gareth In China says:

            Its not a case of being taken on or anything in the same vein. I was merely trying to steer fish into actually contributing rather than insulting, its very clear he/she’s here for a fight. Assuming we sate this overwhelming urge, it could be plausible assumption that we might get some worthwhile comments, once the tantrum is over and territory marking is finished.

          • Fertile Fish says:

            Snigger snigger snigger snigger………………….

          • Bridget Jones says:

            Hmmm.. Bridget has heard about Pisces’ irresistible urges before… Well, almost irresistible! 8)

          • RYK says:

            BJ did you say “taking GIC on”? All I can see is one very very SQUISHED FISH, having being run over n over by GIC !

            FF, time to evolve mate, as these rest of us did a few million years back

          • Fertile Fish says:

            Snigger snigger snigger snigger snigger snigger

          • Fertile Fish says:

            That was less creative than The GIC RYK!

          • Fertile Fish says:

            Snigger snigger snigger snigger snigger

          • Jim & Em says:

            Has the sniggering stopped yet fertile?

          • Fertile Fish says:

            Yes of course it has. For god’s sake I was sniggering at 11.58pm yesterday evening when it was all new and funny, and you ask me just over 20 hours later if I’m still sniggering?

            Funny at the time Admin people, kind of past its sell by date now.

        • Bridget Jones says:

          True RYK, Gary was only baiting. You know that and I know that. But it is good that DubaiGuy clarified, because many do not know Gary’s style and would have been left with the impression that muslim women get regularly knocked about like it was muslim men’s national sport or something ha!

      • Bridget Jones says:

        AH! FINALLY the miswak! I’ve wondered if the real interpretation of wife “beating” would ever come out here. Thanks DubaiGuy, great learning indeed for us and it confirms what my Arab mates have told me.

        Bridget likes this Yusuf guy’s style btw! Religious teachings with wit and humour, that’s the way to GO!

        • Dubai Guy says:

          I also love the style of this Scholar, this is the way a scholar should be. I think he appeals more to the western audience because he himself comes from a Christian & western background.

          Dubai Guy’s last blog post..What is your choice: Islam or Society?

          • AngryfromEllesmerePort says:

            Dubai Guy

            Going back many comments i asked what would be the consquence if Kieren Ashorth decided that Islam was not for her and returned to Christianity – the same for Yusuf Estes?

          • Dubai Guy says:

            Let me first clarify something, I believe Kieren is a he, since his new name Yusuf is a male one. Now coming back to your question, I think you pretty much know the answer yourself. I am sure you must have heard of Muslim death squads whose only mission is to track down people who turn back their backs on Islam. I believe this is the answer you were expecting, right? ;-)

            I would suggest that you read this article, which I am sure will remove doubts in your minds, that is if you were really sincere about that :-)


            Dubai Guy’s last blog post..What is your choice: Islam or Society?

          • Bridget Jones says:


            I gotta say Bridget loves your way of handling the folks here DubaiGuy!

            Agree with David, you definitely have the right caliber to apply for BLOG IDOL. What are you waiting for?

            Oh and how’s Kieren doing btw? Is ‘she’ getting religiously beaten five times a day? 8)

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